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VMWare Revisited |
Sun, Apr 22 2007 11:54 AM | Permanent Link |
"Johnnie Norsworthy" | Previous readers will remember me posting a message about how nice VMWare
was and how I loved it for developing. Back then I thought it was better than both sliced bread and beer. Here is a message about my longer term experience. Now that I have used VMWare 5 a few months I am a bit disappointed. I have decided to go back to my old ways of installing IDEs on my local drive and just maintaining other drives with my source code and other work files. So twice a year I'll be reinstalling my development computer. Here's why: 1. Speed. I didn't realize the difference until I reinstalled D7 out of a VM and ran it. But I now realize how much productivity I gain by not having the IDE in a VM. I would regularly pause my VMs and restart them, which was better than always closing windows, but startup was still slow. After the VM was loaded, my IDEs were noticable slow (even when only one VM was running and nothing else on my 1.5GB of memory 2.8GHZ machine). I think someone programming notices even a 5% speed difference much better than other users. 2. File sharing. I had all kinds of problems trying to keep my source code out of the VM and on a shared drive. It was either very slow or would occasionally just lose the connection and could not access the shred drive. Keep in mind I have a large hard drive partitioned to three drives, and at times three external drives attached via USB. But I never, never used my USB drives in a VM. 3. Backup. I was trying to backup my VMs to an external drive and later to DVDs as a permanent archive. Well, in every case it seems a VM would not fit on a single DVD unless I compressed it first, and I don't like compressing my backups because it takes a long time and because I feel it is less reliable. My "work" backup now is a single DVD which holds all of my clients' source code, all my emails and other irreplaceable documents. 4. Screen Real Estate. The VM manager does take up a little more room on the screen, though that could be minimized or removed. But hiding all the VM manager windows makes it a bit less usuable. And we all know how programmers love their screen space. VMWare 6, I have read, will allow using my multiple monitors, but reasons 1-3 are too important to ignore. 5. GUI. To get the most out of a VM you have to not use some things I like, like ClearType. 6. Testing. I am sure that testing my program in Windows 98 and other OSs using a VM would be a good thing, but I never did it anyway. Being a one man coding factory usually means a bit less testing than a bigger shop. I never got around to installing Vista anyway. I am about to email all my customers and tell them I won't be supporting anything before Windows 2000 in future programs. So for other OS testing and debugging, thank heavens I use madExcept. So I am back to a "Program/OS" drive, a "Data" drive and an "Other" drive and don't regret going back at all. I have removed all VMWare programs and all virtual machines from my computer for now, until I find a compelling reason to go back. I can see many, many uses for VMs, but it ended up not being right for me. -Johnnie |
Mon, Apr 23 2007 6:39 AM | Permanent Link |
"Adam H." | While on the subject of Virtual Machines - just in case anyone's not aware -
Microsoft have released their version - Virtual PC as a free download direct from their website now. Cheers Adam. |
Tue, Apr 24 2007 3:35 AM | Permanent Link |
In article <3E412F5B-FB94-49F6-B68C-FB6BDA9AE788@news.elevatesoft.com>,
jln206@verizon.net (Johnnie Norsworthy) wrote various comments about VMWare: In which case you are lucky not to have to support a Delphi5 app using DBISAM 3, a D5 app using DBISAM 1(!!), a D2006 app using DBISAM 4, a D2007 app using (v soon) ElevateDB etc. And, of course, they all use numerous combinations and versions of ReportBuilder, DevExpress, CodeSite, TMS etc etc. > 1. Speed. On a 2GHz AMD (single core) + 2Gb I don't find speed to be an issue. Yes, it's (probably) slower, but only a tiny bit and no way does it affect my productivity (maybe I'm a slow worker It's worth the speed cost for all the other benefits. > 2. File sharing. Never had this problem but, even so - keep the source in a source code repository and check it out to the VM, even in a single developer situation. So very much safer and much more useful. > 3. Backup. See above re source code. But at least with a VM you *can* do a backup of the *whole* environment for an individual project, even if it is big. > 4. Screen Real Estate. Granted dual monitor support may be useful (although I haven't tried it even though I'm using VM 6 beta) but hit F11 in the VM and use it full screen on a single monitor - no problems. I tend to use the main screen for a fullscreen VM with the second monitor for other (local machine) working stuff, eg help file, MS SDK docs, CodeSite viewer, web browser etc > 5. GUI. To get the most out of a VM you have to not use some things I > like, like ClearType. I've no idea here > 6. Testing. ....and debugging when the client tells you they have XYZ OS with IE version N and Outlook version O and Office version P along with numerous other older versions. Not to mention the fact that you can create a snapshot then install samples, trial versions, upgrades and easily uninstall them if it all goes pear shaped just by reverting to the original snapshot. I have no affiliation with VMWare but I couldn't imagine having to go back to developing without it. Just my thoughts from the opposite angle Steve | |
Tue, Apr 24 2007 5:01 AM | Permanent Link |
> Here's why:
> > 1. Speed. I didn't realize the difference until I reinstalled D7 out of > [snip] I think someone > programming notices even a 5% speed difference much better than other > users. 5% can be lost in many ways, but yes there may be a small speed loss. > 2. File sharing. [snip] or would > occasionally just lose the connection and could not access the shred > drive. I suspect that the main issue here is that suspending you mention. The idea of a PC processor stopping at the end of a clock cycle, waiting a day or two, and then ticking again and having it still work at all is simply stunning. But expecting things like network connections to be happy with this is pushing it a little hard IMO. There are bound to be issues when a network was quite happy one clock cycle ago, and the next clock cycle the remote PC appears to have been in a time warp and moved on a few million seconds and forgotten all about the other. > 3. Backup. [snip] Well, in every case it seems a VM would > not fit on a single DVD unless I compressed it first [snip] I always make sure my VMs are created with the 2Gb file version of disks for this very reason. > 4. Screen Real Estate. [snip] Yes, though you can put it in full screen mode too. > 5. GUI. To get the most out of a VM you have to not use some things I > like, like ClearType. I'd say that was a benefit! 8-) > 6. Testing. I am sure that testing my program in Windows 98 and other > OSs > using a VM would be a good thing, but I never did it anyway. Being a > one man > coding factory usually means a bit less testing than a bigger shop. I > never got around to installing Vista anyway. I am about to email all my > customers and tell them I won't be supporting anything before Windows > 2000 in future programs. So for other OS testing and debugging, thank > heavens I use madExcept. Me, I'd say that using VMs for testing is the key benefit. Once you've set up a particular OS, you can run it again and again. Testing on Vista or Win98 is just a matter of moments apart (or at the same time!). > So I am back to a "Program/OS" drive, a "Data" drive and an "Other" > drive and don't regret going back at all. I have removed all VMWare > programs and all virtual machines from my computer for now, until I > find a compelling reason to go back. That's rather drastic IMO - they have many good purposes. Testing is my main purpose, but I'm also working on using VMs as build machines. I'll now be doing all development on my main work machine, but as a product stabilises I'll put all the components etc onto a VM PC along with the FinalBuilder build script. I'll then be able to make minor adjustments to the code to fix issues without falling into the trap I do now where another project gets a component upgraded, and that breaks something else. I need to know I have a stable development environment and a VM gives me that. I'll also mention that I have a dual-processor PC sitting with VMWare server (the free one) that runs 4 PCs running my 24/7 software project in test mode, and also happens to run a Linux PC for my family photos. This PC allows me to do testing of my code without the interruptions of a desktop PC. Don't give up on VMs - the love affair may be over for you, but there's plenty of good friendship in it. 8-) /Matthew Jones/ | |
Tue, Apr 24 2007 2:04 PM | Permanent Link |
"Malcolm" | I am playing with the VMWare V6 beta on a new Vista Laptop
with dual core processor and 2Gb RAM. I find the laptop VM IDE performs much better than the non-VM IDE on my ageing desktop and I am quite satisfied with its responsiveness. OK, the desktop VM does creak a bit but it is seriously short of memory and power .. just pondering the spec of the soon to be ordered replacement. In two days time I set off for a four-day user 'event' to provide live training and support, and I can be confident that my VM IDE and shared sources will be right up to date should there any need to make adjustments. Malcolm |
Thu, Apr 26 2007 7:33 AM | Permanent Link |
"Ralf Mimoun" | Johnnie Norsworthy wrote:
.... > 1. Speed. I didn't realize the difference until I reinstalled D7 out > of a VM and ran it. But I now realize how much productivity I gain by > not having the IDE in a VM. Yes, it is a little bit slower. But just a little bit. I can live with that, especially because I save so much time by just minimizing the whole dev machine when I need more screen space. And I know for sure that my physical machine will break one day before the deadline for an important project. Right now, I can grab the next computer available, install VMWare or VMPlayer, restore the vm from my backup, svn checkout, and I'm back. 30 minutes, including fiding a club to argument that I need the computer _now_. I'd need longer just to find my Delphi installation CD, not to mention installing all component packs. .... > 2. File sharing. I had all kinds of problems trying to keep my source > code out of the VM and on a shared drive. Then DON'T!. Install a versioning system, eg. svn. Everything else is just a toy. have the svn server on a vm on my server machine. so... .... > 3. Backup. I was trying to backup my VMs to an external drive and > later to DVDs as a permanent archive. Well, in every case it seems a > VM would not fit on a single DVD unless I compressed it first, and I > don't like compressing my backups because it takes a long time and > because I feel it is less reliable. My "work" backup now is a single > DVD which holds all of my clients' source code, all my emails and > other irreplaceable documents. I simply backup my svn machine if I want to, which is way smaller than the dev vm machine. Btw, I backup on external drives, they are too cheap. Permanent backups are for frozen versions, so I export from svn and burn it. My day-to-day backup is a Acronis backup of my computer to a 500 GB USB drive. Works like a charm. > 4. Screen Real Estate. The VM manager does take up a little more room > on the screen, though that could be minimized or removed. But hiding > all the VM manager windows makes it a bit less usuable. Never had these problems: vm on the right monitor (22" wide LCD), mail+word+everything else on the left monitor (same type). VMWare is running fullscreen, no extra panels whatsoever. I can reach everything by moving the mouse to the upper border, suspend is Ctrl+Z, and I can un-fullscreen via F11. That's all I need I will never go back developing on physical machines. |
Thu, Apr 26 2007 12:49 PM | Permanent Link |
Jon Lloyd Duerdoth | Fascinating thread!
I've not even tried VMWare but it certainly sounds interesting. What about the issue of installing Windows multiple times in several VMs... do you get into activation issues with Microsoft? Jon Ralf Mimoun wrote: > Johnnie Norsworthy wrote: > ... >> 1. Speed. I didn't realize the difference until I reinstalled D7 out >> of a VM and ran it. But I now realize how much productivity I gain by >> not having the IDE in a VM. > > Yes, it is a little bit slower. But just a little bit. I can live with > that, especially because I save so much time by just minimizing the > whole dev machine when I need more screen space. And I know for sure > that my physical machine will break one day before the deadline for an > important project. Right now, I can grab the next computer available, > install VMWare or VMPlayer, restore the vm from my backup, svn checkout, > and I'm back. 30 minutes, including fiding a club to argument that I > need the computer _now_. I'd need longer just to find my Delphi > installation CD, not to mention installing all component packs. > > ... >> 2. File sharing. I had all kinds of problems trying to keep my source >> code out of the VM and on a shared drive. > > Then DON'T!. Install a versioning system, eg. svn. Everything else is > just a toy. have the svn server on a vm on my server machine. so... > > ... >> 3. Backup. I was trying to backup my VMs to an external drive and >> later to DVDs as a permanent archive. Well, in every case it seems a >> VM would not fit on a single DVD unless I compressed it first, and I >> don't like compressing my backups because it takes a long time and >> because I feel it is less reliable. My "work" backup now is a single >> DVD which holds all of my clients' source code, all my emails and >> other irreplaceable documents. > > I simply backup my svn machine if I want to, which is way smaller than > the dev vm machine. Btw, I backup on external drives, they are too > cheap. Permanent backups are for frozen versions, so I export from svn > and burn it. My day-to-day backup is a Acronis backup of my computer to > a 500 GB USB drive. Works like a charm. > >> 4. Screen Real Estate. The VM manager does take up a little more room >> on the screen, though that could be minimized or removed. But hiding >> all the VM manager windows makes it a bit less usuable. > > Never had these problems: vm on the right monitor (22" wide LCD), > mail+word+everything else on the left monitor (same type). VMWare is > running fullscreen, no extra panels whatsoever. I can reach everything > by moving the mouse to the upper border, suspend is Ctrl+Z, and I can > un-fullscreen via F11. That's all I need > > I will never go back developing on physical machines. |
Thu, Apr 26 2007 1:27 PM | Permanent Link |
Jim Margarit | There are issues. I would bet you cannot have several xp vm's with the
same key running with access to the internet without them phoning home and flags going up. I would love to see any links you might find on the subject! Jim Margarit Jon Lloyd Duerdoth wrote: > Fascinating thread! > > I've not even tried VMWare but it certainly sounds interesting. > > What about the issue of installing Windows multiple times in > several VMs... do you get into activation issues with Microsoft? > > Jon > > Ralf Mimoun wrote: >> Johnnie Norsworthy wrote: >> ... >>> 1. Speed. I didn't realize the difference until I reinstalled D7 out >>> of a VM and ran it. But I now realize how much productivity I gain by >>> not having the IDE in a VM. >> >> Yes, it is a little bit slower. But just a little bit. I can live with >> that, especially because I save so much time by just minimizing the >> whole dev machine when I need more screen space. And I know for sure >> that my physical machine will break one day before the deadline for an >> important project. Right now, I can grab the next computer available, >> install VMWare or VMPlayer, restore the vm from my backup, svn >> checkout, and I'm back. 30 minutes, including fiding a club to >> argument that I need the computer _now_. I'd need longer just to find >> my Delphi installation CD, not to mention installing all component packs. >> >> ... >>> 2. File sharing. I had all kinds of problems trying to keep my source >>> code out of the VM and on a shared drive. >> >> Then DON'T!. Install a versioning system, eg. svn. Everything else is >> just a toy. have the svn server on a vm on my server machine. so... >> >> ... >>> 3. Backup. I was trying to backup my VMs to an external drive and >>> later to DVDs as a permanent archive. Well, in every case it seems a >>> VM would not fit on a single DVD unless I compressed it first, and I >>> don't like compressing my backups because it takes a long time and >>> because I feel it is less reliable. My "work" backup now is a single >>> DVD which holds all of my clients' source code, all my emails and >>> other irreplaceable documents. >> >> I simply backup my svn machine if I want to, which is way smaller than >> the dev vm machine. Btw, I backup on external drives, they are too >> cheap. Permanent backups are for frozen versions, so I export from svn >> and burn it. My day-to-day backup is a Acronis backup of my computer >> to a 500 GB USB drive. Works like a charm. >> >>> 4. Screen Real Estate. The VM manager does take up a little more room >>> on the screen, though that could be minimized or removed. But hiding >>> all the VM manager windows makes it a bit less usuable. >> >> Never had these problems: vm on the right monitor (22" wide LCD), >> mail+word+everything else on the left monitor (same type). VMWare is >> running fullscreen, no extra panels whatsoever. I can reach everything >> by moving the mouse to the upper border, suspend is Ctrl+Z, and I can >> un-fullscreen via F11. That's all I need >> >> I will never go back developing on physical machines. |
Thu, Apr 26 2007 2:53 PM | Permanent Link |
Jon Lloyd Duerdoth | I'm guessing that if you set up a VM with Windows XP
activated and then made duplicates of the VM that it would not require further activation... probably violates the EULA tho' Jon Jim Margarit wrote: > There are issues. I would bet you cannot have several xp vm's with the > same key running with access to the internet without them phoning home > and flags going up. I would love to see any links you might find on the > subject! > > Jim Margarit > > Jon Lloyd Duerdoth wrote: >> Fascinating thread! >> >> I've not even tried VMWare but it certainly sounds interesting. >> >> What about the issue of installing Windows multiple times in >> several VMs... do you get into activation issues with Microsoft? >> >> Jon >> >> Ralf Mimoun wrote: >>> Johnnie Norsworthy wrote: >>> ... >>>> 1. Speed. I didn't realize the difference until I reinstalled D7 out >>>> of a VM and ran it. But I now realize how much productivity I gain by >>>> not having the IDE in a VM. >>> >>> Yes, it is a little bit slower. But just a little bit. I can live >>> with that, especially because I save so much time by just minimizing >>> the whole dev machine when I need more screen space. And I know for >>> sure that my physical machine will break one day before the deadline >>> for an important project. Right now, I can grab the next computer >>> available, install VMWare or VMPlayer, restore the vm from my backup, >>> svn checkout, and I'm back. 30 minutes, including fiding a club to >>> argument that I need the computer _now_. I'd need longer just to find >>> my Delphi installation CD, not to mention installing all component >>> packs. >>> >>> ... >>>> 2. File sharing. I had all kinds of problems trying to keep my source >>>> code out of the VM and on a shared drive. >>> >>> Then DON'T!. Install a versioning system, eg. svn. Everything else is >>> just a toy. have the svn server on a vm on my server machine. so... >>> >>> ... >>>> 3. Backup. I was trying to backup my VMs to an external drive and >>>> later to DVDs as a permanent archive. Well, in every case it seems a >>>> VM would not fit on a single DVD unless I compressed it first, and I >>>> don't like compressing my backups because it takes a long time and >>>> because I feel it is less reliable. My "work" backup now is a single >>>> DVD which holds all of my clients' source code, all my emails and >>>> other irreplaceable documents. >>> >>> I simply backup my svn machine if I want to, which is way smaller >>> than the dev vm machine. Btw, I backup on external drives, they are >>> too cheap. Permanent backups are for frozen versions, so I export >>> from svn and burn it. My day-to-day backup is a Acronis backup of my >>> computer to a 500 GB USB drive. Works like a charm. >>> >>>> 4. Screen Real Estate. The VM manager does take up a little more room >>>> on the screen, though that could be minimized or removed. But hiding >>>> all the VM manager windows makes it a bit less usuable. >>> >>> Never had these problems: vm on the right monitor (22" wide LCD), >>> mail+word+everything else on the left monitor (same type). VMWare is >>> running fullscreen, no extra panels whatsoever. I can reach >>> everything by moving the mouse to the upper border, suspend is >>> Ctrl+Z, and I can un-fullscreen via F11. That's all I need >>> >>> I will never go back developing on physical machines. |
Thu, Apr 26 2007 3:14 PM | Permanent Link |
"Johnnie Norsworthy" | "Jon Lloyd Duerdoth" <jld@welshdragoncomputing.ca> wrote in message
news:08482C23-EA9C-462F-90C7-52F7766CE5C7@news.elevatesoft.com... > I'm guessing that if you set up a VM with Windows XP > activated and then made duplicates of the VM that it would not require > further activation... probably violates the EULA tho' No, it did not require re-activation for subsequent VMs cloned from the first one. It probably violates the EULA, I have heard, so I would never, ever do that. -Johnnie |
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