Tim Young [Elevate Software] wrote:

>
> We aren't requiring them to do so.   Bug fixes are builds, which are
> included as part of the support plan (even if it has expired) up until the
> next minor release (x.02, x.03, etc.)  After that point, if your support
> plan has expired, you'll be required to purchase a new one to get the new
> minor release and any bug fix builds after it.  That's about the only way we
> can do it and have it still work as a paid support plan while being as fair
> as possible.

Ok, then it is as I read it.

>
> If a person just bought the software, then they automatically get a 1-year
> support plan as part of the purchase.  Therefore, I'm having a hard time
> understanding how your scenario would play out.  Are you talking about
> someone finding a bug in the software a week or so before their support
> contract expires ?

Or a week after. I don't always use all the functionality of a piece of
software the day I install it. It might be months before I do so. In the
case of DBISAM 4.x, I didn't start using Blobfields until last year, 3+
years after it was released.

>
> So, your recommendation would be that we continue to provide free support
> for all existing users forever and simply charge new customers after their
> first year expires ?

Not exactly. I believe that with all versions of DBISAM, that is exactly
how it was sold. Before this latest policy change, All minor updates and
bug fixes were included in the original sale price. In fact, there is
precedence in the fact that you have done exactly this, and not just
with DBISAM 4.X. either.


> At one point would you say that an existing user has
> received fair value for their purchase ?  

From the day they install it until the day they un-install it. You sold
it without any expiration or any definition of 'fair value' as it
relates to customer use.

> DBISAM 4.x customers that bought
> when it was released have received 26 minor releases, untold bug fixes, and
> 4 years of support for their single purchase.  Would you consider that fair
> and ethical ?

Yes, you upheld your portion of the bargain for the sale you made, and
for that I am very thankful as I am sure many of us are. DBISAM is a
great product and I promote it every chance I get.

The terms of purchase were agreed upon by both parties, you were happy
to do so at the time, and now you want to change the terms, post sale.
I'm sorry that DBISAM 4.x is such a good product that it no longer is
being developed and therefore is no longer generating revenue via major
upgrades by those of us still using it. At some point, I will move to
EDB and pay you some more money, but as of today, I expect the same
support I was told I purchased, and you have provided, with every
version of DBISAM, which is minor releases and bug fixes without
additional costs.

>
> As for grandfathering in until the next major release - DBISAM probably
> won't have another major release, which was the whole point of the support
> plans for existing DBISAM customers.  Did you not receive the emails that we
> sent out detailing why we're doing the support plans in the first place ?
>

Yes, I did.

I could probably support your argument to ask for payment for support
from those still using DBISAM 4.x if it was not still a viable product
(sunset) and you were not longer selling it. But the fact is it is still
very viable and you are still selling it.


BTW, I'm not angry about this. I'm just not comfortable with the change
in support for those of us who have been faithful (me, since 1999). I
will likely upgrade to EDB in the future, but I probably won't pay for a
support contract for DBISAM 4.x. The way I read the agreement when I
purchased it and by the way you have published updates, they are
included in the original purchase price.

Mark

Mark,

<< The terms of purchase were agreed upon by both parties, you were happy to
do so at the time, and now you want to change the terms, post sale. >>

The terms of the purchase are agreed upon every time you download the
product, and they are valid for the version that you are downloading at the
time.  No more, no less.  We could change the terms on each minor release if
we wanted to.

<< BTW, I'm not angry about this. I'm just not comfortable with the change
in support for those of us who have been faithful (me, since 1999). I will
likely upgrade to EDB in the future, but I probably won't pay for a support
contract for DBISAM 4.x. The way I read the agreement when I purchased it
and by the way you have published updates, they are included in the original
purchase price. >>

And frankly, for a faithful customer I would expect a little more
understanding in this matter.  We have dealt with you in a fair and
straight-forward manner, and you respond by posting messages like this that
imply dishonesty and deception ?  If this is that much of a problem for you,
then contact Sam in sales and we'll be happy to refund your $129 and $124
that you spent back in 2003 for DBISAM 4.x VCL and CLX, respectively.  I'm
sure you'll have no problem finding that kind of value elsewhere (around $3
a month for bug fixes, minor releases, and support for each product,
including holidays, weekends, and evenings).

--
Tim Young
Elevate Software
www.elevatesoft.com

Tim Young [Elevate Software] wrote:

>
> And frankly, for a faithful customer I would expect a little more
> understanding in this matter.  We have dealt with you in a fair and
> straight-forward manner, and you respond by posting messages like this that
> imply dishonesty and deception ?  If this is that much of a problem for you,
> then contact Sam in sales and we'll be happy to refund your $129 and $124
> that you spent back in 2003 for DBISAM 4.x VCL and CLX, respectively.  I'm
> sure you'll have no problem finding that kind of value elsewhere (around $3
> a month for bug fixes, minor releases, and support for each product,
> including holidays, weekends, and evenings).
>

Tim, please do not accuse me of something I did not do. I did not imply
dishonesty nor deception. I did not imply anything. You have been quite
upfront with your intentions and I asked for a clarification, which you
promptly gave.

I did question whether it was ethical to withhold support from someone
for something that was already paid for. You seem to believe it is
ethical, by your new policy, and I believe it isn't. Based upon this, I
will not be purchasing an support agreement for DBISAM 4.X, since I
believe that I already did so in 2003. If you choose not to support me
or others after the next minor release, then so be it; that is your
decision. (this is not written in anger; it is merely a statement of fact)

If you want my understanding, then explain to me the problem you are
facing and ask for my help. I am not callous nor cold-hearted. I do
understand when people have situations that arise where circumstances
change and they need to be relieved of or helped with a burden. If this
is the case, send me a private email and I'll see what I can do.

Otherwise, purchasing a support agreement for a product is nothing more
than a business transaction. What you asked for is that in consideration
for continuing support on DBISAM 4.X, I am to give you more money. I
very respectfully decline.

I will not take you up on your offer for a refund, although I do
appreciate the sentiment. Doing so would be dis-honest on my part, since
I have and still do derive good service from the products I purchased
from you.

Again, I am not angry, but you seem to be. I did not mean to offend you
and if I did, I apologize. However, I don't think what you are doing is
good business, but you didn't ask for my opinion on that subject.

And, BTW, I also purchased 1.X in 1999 and 3.X. somewhere around 2002,
so my faithfulness goes back further than 2003. In addition there have
been others who I've influenced to purchase your products and I know for
a fact that one of those customers garnered yet another new customer.
Add to that the countless recommendations on other public forums over
the years when someone asks "Which Database should I use with Delphi?".

Mark

Mark

I am older DBISAM user too and I understand ElevateSoft is giving us a
situation to choose. Microsoft ends some products and did not offer support
neither updates and error fixes after that.

ElevateDB is now the way to follow but ElevateSoft heard their customers and
this is only an answer to their opinions. You have to choose, or move to
ElevateDB (this is a good decision) or stay with DBISAM, but if you want
support or error fixes then you should pay for this.

At least for me, this is very fair.

Regards

Eduardo

Mark,

<< Tim, please do not accuse me of something I did not do. I did not imply
dishonesty nor deception. I did not imply anything. You have been quite
upfront with your intentions and I asked for a clarification, which you
promptly gave. >>

You questioned whether such a policy change was ethical, which only leaves
me to assume that you think that the new policy is unethical.  When I think
of the word "unethical", I think of deception and dishonesty.  What do you
mean when you say the word "unethical", if not deception and dishonesty ?

<< I did question whether it was ethical to withhold support from someone
for something that was already paid for. You seem to believe it is ethical,
by your new policy, and I believe it isn't. Based upon this, I will not be
purchasing an support agreement for DBISAM 4.X, since I believe that I
already did so in 2003. If you choose not to support me
or others after the next minor release, then so be it; that is your
decision. (this is not written in anger; it is merely a statement of fact)
>>

We have already chosen to do so, and have announced as such via email.

<< If you want my understanding, then explain to me the problem you are
facing and ask for my help. I am not callous nor cold-hearted. I do
understand when people have situations that arise where circumstances change
and they need to be relieved of or helped with a burden. If this is the
case, send me a private email and I'll see what I can do. >>

I have no idea what you're talking about here.

<< Again, I am not angry, but you seem to be. I did not mean to offend you
and if I did, I apologize. However, I don't think what you are doing is good
business, but you didn't ask for my opinion on that subject. >>

You referred to our new policy as unethical.  How are we supposed to take
such a statement ?  Would it anger you if a customer that has been given
every bit of benefit in terms of special upgrade pricing, etc. through the
years along with access to top-notch support all of a sudden told you that
you were being unethical because they didn't agree with a change in policy ?
We've given up a lot of money to be fair and reasonable with our customers
over the years, and your statements are a slap in the face.

<< And, BTW, I also purchased 1.X in 1999 and 3.X. somewhere around 2002, so
my faithfulness goes back further than 2003. >>

You purchased the product for $199 in 2000, paid a $59 upgrade fee in 2001,
and then another $129 and $124 in 2003.  All of which is fantastic - we
appreciate loyal customers and we reward them with very generous pricing.
The sum list price of all that you received was $946, and you received it
all for $511.  $511 for 8 years of products and support ($5 a month, or the
price of a fancy coffee).  So, how on earth do you have the nerve to come
here and post that our new policy is somehow unethical or that we're not
living up to our end of the arrangement ?

<< In addition there have been others who I've influenced to purchase your
products and I know for a fact that one of those customers garnered yet
another new customer. Add to that the countless recommendations on other
public forums over the years when someone asks "Which Database should I use
with Delphi?". >>

Exactly my point.  There are a lot of things that we both do that aren't
explicit in our business transactions, and it would be nice if we could keep
these things in mind when we're dealing with each other.  Yet, here you seem
to want to throw out the fact that these extras mean anything at all.  Our
customers are very good to us, and we're very good to our customers by
offering the best support and products that we can offer at *very* fair
prices.  Case in point - we've raised our prices *twice* in 10 years.   In
1998, our one DBISAM product cost $199, and in 2008 the most similar
ElevateDB product costs $279, which is only approximately $20 more when
taking into account US inflation.  And trust me when I say that ElevateDB
does a *lot* more than DBISAM 1.x did.

--
Tim Young
Elevate Software
www.elevatesoft.com

Tim Young [Elevate Software] wrote:
> Mark,
>
> << Tim, please do not accuse me of something I did not do. I did not imply
> dishonesty nor deception. I did not imply anything. You have been quite
> upfront with your intentions and I asked for a clarification, which you
> promptly gave. >>
>
> You questioned whether such a policy change was ethical, which only leaves
> me to assume that you think that the new policy is unethical.  When I think
> of the word "unethical", I think of deception and dishonesty.  What do you
> mean when you say the word "unethical", if not deception and dishonesty ?

From Dictionary.com, the definition of ethical. Unethical is the
antithesis. Notice, especially in the example, deception and dishonesty
are not mentioned or implied.

2.   being in accordance with the rules or standards for right conduct or
practice, esp. the standards of a profession: eg. "It was not considered
ethical for physicians to advertise."

This is the definition I believe most correctly applies to this situation.

I don't believe you deceived me in the past and I don't believe you are
deceiving me now. You have been quite straight forward in your
intentions, therefore no deception.

You have not been dishonest. You have not tried to charge my credit card
for the new support policy without my permission. You have not
threatened me if I do not comply. You have broken no laws. You have been
upfront for doing so. There is no dishonesty here.

In this case, unethical means trying to change the terms of a deal after
the deal has been struck and all parties have agreed to the original
terms. You have offered me an out, because you can't simply force me
into the new terms. You have "offered" to no long support me unless I
pay the new fee for the same support I paid for in the original
purchase. That is, I believe, unethical. There is no law on the books in
my state for or against such behavior, therefore, it isn't dishonest (in
my book).

Most of the time, issues such as this end up with one party suing
another with a whole bunch of lawyers involved and a whole bunch of
money being wasted; usually many times more than the original amount in
dispute. I could sue, and probably would win, but it isn't worth the
time or effort and both of us would suffer as a result no matter the
outcome and I have no desire to cause you any suffering.  In fact, I
want just the opposite for you. I want you to be extremely successful.
You have developed great products. I use your products. I want others to
use your products.

I have never had to sue anyone in my life and am not going to start now
for an amount as trivial is this. My argument on this issue has never
been about the money. Also, any "damages" I might have as a result of
the new support policy are trivial to non-existent. I don't believe I
have ever used your support, other than to look up issues in the
newsgroups that others might have had, and even those times are few and
far between.

>
> << If you want my understanding, then explain to me the problem you are
> facing and ask for my help. I am not callous nor cold-hearted. I do
> understand when people have situations that arise where circumstances change
> and they need to be relieved of or helped with a burden. If this is the
> case, send me a private email and I'll see what I can do. >>
>
> I have no idea what you're talking about here.
>

You asked, almost pleaded, for "understanding" in your original email.
I'm willing to give understanding, but I need to know the problem first.

> << Again, I am not angry, but you seem to be. I did not mean to offend you
> and if I did, I apologize. However, I don't think what you are doing is good
> business, but you didn't ask for my opinion on that subject. >>
>
> You referred to our new policy as unethical.  How are we supposed to take
> such a statement ?  Would it anger you if a customer that has been given
> every bit of benefit in terms of special upgrade pricing, etc. through the
> years along with access to top-notch support all of a sudden told you that
> you were being unethical because they didn't agree with a change in policy ?
> We've given up a lot of money to be fair and reasonable with our customers
> over the years, and your statements are a slap in the face.
>
> << And, BTW, I also purchased 1.X in 1999 and 3.X. somewhere around 2002, so
> my faithfulness goes back further than 2003. >>
>
> You purchased the product for $199 in 2000, paid a $59 upgrade fee in 2001,
> and then another $129 and $124 in 2003.  All of which is fantastic - we
> appreciate loyal customers and we reward them with very generous pricing.
> The sum list price of all that you received was $946, and you received it
> all for $511.  $511 for 8 years of products and support ($5 a month, or the
> price of a fancy coffee).  So, how on earth do you have the nerve to come
> here and post that our new policy is somehow unethical or that we're not
> living up to our end of the arrangement ?

And you sold them to me for that price, happily (I thought). You asked
for the amount of money I paid. I did not asked for a special discount
or special favor. You advertised the price and I paid it. We struck a
deal. I probably would have paid more, had the price been higher, but
the prices you offered were the prices I paid just like everyone other
customer you have.

Looking back, at what price should you have sold all this to me so that
we would not be having this conversation? In you eyes, what amount of
money would have made us have equal value from our past dealings, as of
today? For some reason, you don't seem to think you've gotten a fair
shake in our transactions and until now, I didn't think there was a problem.

I don't like to take advantage of people and when I purchased your
software in the past, I didn't think I was taking advantage of you. You
offered it to me and others at a price that I believed *you* thought was
fair. Should I have offered more money than you were asking?

>
> << In addition there have been others who I've influenced to purchase your
> products and I know for a fact that one of those customers garnered yet
> another new customer. Add to that the countless recommendations on other
> public forums over the years when someone asks "Which Database should I use
> with Delphi?". >>
>
> Exactly my point.  There are a lot of things that we both do that aren't
> explicit in our business transactions, and it would be nice if we could keep
> these things in mind when we're dealing with each other.  Yet, here you seem
> to want to throw out the fact that these extras mean anything at all.  Our
> customers are very good to us, and we're very good to our customers by
> offering the best support and products that we can offer at *very* fair
> prices.  Case in point - we've raised our prices *twice* in 10 years.   In
> 1998, our one DBISAM product cost $199, and in 2008 the most similar
> ElevateDB product costs $279, which is only approximately $20 more when
> taking into account US inflation.  And trust me when I say that ElevateDB
> does a *lot* more than DBISAM 1.x did.
>

I'm not arguing value. I honestly believe that DBISAM and ElevateDB
(although not from first hand knowledge - yet) are the best products on
the market in their category. I've told many people this over the years.
I also believe that your pricing has been great, especially for small
developers like me.

However, I'm also not the one asking for additional compensation for all
 these implicit "things" we do. For my part in promoting your software,
never have I come to you asking for or demanding any compensation of any
kind for the recommendations I was making on your behalf. Never. Never
will either.

It seems that you want compensation for the implicit "things", making
them explicit. I agree that you should be compensated for your work, and
if you want to strike a new deal on the next software I purchase from
you to include such "things" which were implicit in the past, then
great. You've presented your new pricing schedule and for new purchases
and upgrades. I have no problem with your current prices and the terms
for new purchases and major upgrades. However, to try to change the
terms of past deals simply isn't right.


Mark

Mark,

What would be your opinion if Tim had announced that from now on there will
be no further development of DBISAM, except for fixing bugs that may break
the advertised functionality for the current version ?

--
Fernando Dias

Mark,

<< In this case, unethical means trying to change the terms of a deal after
the deal has been struck and all parties have agreed to the original terms.
You have offered me an out, because you can't simply force me into the new
terms. You have "offered" to no long support me unless I pay the new fee for
the same support I paid for in the original purchase. That is, I believe,
unethical. >>

Okay, let's stop with this charade right here.  Do you really believe that
your purchase price of $129 entitles you to unlimited support forever for
the DBISAM 4x. VCL product that you bought with it ?  If so, then there's
really nothing else to talk about because you're not going to discuss this
like a reasonable person.  If not, then did you get fair value for the $129
that you paid ?  If so, then there's nothing else to talk about.

The two options were a) keep DBISAM going with support plans, or b)
discontinue it.  If you don't want to pay the support plan, then b) is
coming a little earlier for you than with others.   That's it, plain and
simple.  If you don't, can't, won't understand that, then there's not much
else I can do for you.

<< And you sold them to me for that price, happily (I thought). You asked
for the amount of money I paid. I did not asked for a special discount or
special favor. You advertised the price and I paid it. We struck a deal. I
probably would have paid more, had the price been higher, but the prices you
offered were the prices I paid just like everyone other customer you have.
>>

Are you purposefully being obtuse ?  My point is that we gave you a deal in
exchange for your loyalty.  There was value that you received that was not
explicit in the purchase price, and you have received that value.
Therefore, you have received what you paid for, and then some.

<< I'm not arguing value. I honestly believe that DBISAM and ElevateDB
(although not from first hand knowledge - yet) are the best products on the
market in their category. I've told many people this over the years. I also
believe that your pricing has been great, especially for small developers
like me.

However, I'm also not the one asking for additional compensation for all
these implicit "things" we do. >>

I'm not asking for additional compensation - from where I stand we've
already provided you fair value for your purchase price.  It is *you* that
is arguing for more than what you purchased, as I've clearly demonstrated to
you.  Any reasonable person would assume that $5 a month for 4 years *for
two products* is a very fair value, and would have no problem paying more
after that time period if they still needed to continue on with the product.
However, you are insisting on being unreasonable.

Look, I'll say it for the last time - if you don't want to purchase the
support plan, then don't.  But don't come in here complaining that we're
being unethical or ripping you off, because those are serious charges and
you are really pushing things too far.  You got what you paid for, and now
it has come to an end.

--
Tim Young
Elevate Software
www.elevatesoft.com

Fernando Dias wrote:
> Mark,
>
> What would be your opinion if Tim had announced that from now on there will
> be no further development of DBISAM, except for fixing bugs that may break
> the advertised functionality for the current version ?
>

Good question.

If your scenario was actually what was being proposed, I would evaluate
how the changes would affect my software and make a determination on
whether the benefits of the fixes outweighed the changes I would have to
make to my software to accommodate them.

At the point that DBISAM no long suited my purpose, I would evaluate
potential database replacements and make the change, obviously with a
predisposition to using ElevateDB.

Isn't that essentially what Tim has said, except that now, for those who
have already paid for it once, will now have to pay again for bug fixes?

I'm not asking for new enhancements for free. I'm simply asking for the
deal I agreed to when I purchased the software, which was that minor
releases would be covered under the original purchase price. I, and I
believe most people, expect minor releases to cover bug fixes in the
original functionality as sold in the major version release I purchased,
but if Tim wants to include enhancements as well, then that is up to him.

What is your opinion on this very scenario?


Mark

Tim Young [Elevate Software] wrote:
> Mark,

>
> Okay, let's stop with this charade right here.  Do you really believe that
> your purchase price of $129 entitles you to unlimited support forever for
> the DBISAM 4x. VCL product that you bought with it ?  If so, then there's
> really nothing else to talk about because you're not going to discuss this
> like a reasonable person.  If not, then did you get fair value for the $129
> that you paid ?  If so, then there's nothing else to talk about.

I'm not the one who offered unlimited support for the price paid. You did.

>
> The two options were a) keep DBISAM going with support plans, or b)
> discontinue it.  If you don't want to pay the support plan, then b) is
> coming a little earlier for you than with others.   That's it, plain and
> simple.  If you don't, can't, won't understand that, then there's not much
> else I can do for you.
>

Then discontinue it. To continue to fix it but make those of us who have
already paid for it pay again is unethical; yes I said it again. Take it
however you want to.

> << And you sold them to me for that price, happily (I thought). You asked
> for the amount of money I paid. I did not asked for a special discount or
> special favor. You advertised the price and I paid it. We struck a deal. I
> probably would have paid more, had the price been higher, but the prices you
> offered were the prices I paid just like everyone other customer you have.
>  >>
>
> Are you purposefully being obtuse ?  My point is that we gave you a deal in
> exchange for your loyalty.  There was value that you received that was not
> explicit in the purchase price, and you have received that value.
> Therefore, you have received what you paid for, and then some.
>

I never read anything in the agreements you produced about giving you
both loyalty and money for your products. Loyalty is something you earn
(and throwaway apparently), not purchase or bargain for.

> << I'm not arguing value. I honestly believe that DBISAM and ElevateDB
> (although not from first hand knowledge - yet) are the best products on the
> market in their category. I've told many people this over the years. I also
> believe that your pricing has been great, especially for small developers
> like me.
>
>  However, I'm also not the one asking for additional compensation for all
> these implicit "things" we do. >>
>
> I'm not asking for additional compensation - from where I stand we've
> already provided you fair value for your purchase price.  It is *you* that
> is arguing for more than what you purchased, as I've clearly demonstrated to
> you.  Any reasonable person would assume that $5 a month for 4 years *for
> two products* is a very fair value, and would have no problem paying more
> after that time period if they still needed to continue on with the product.
> However, you are insisting on being unreasonable.

If you are asking for additional money for something you already sold,
you are, in fact, asking for additional compensation. I don't see how it
can be taken any other way.

You didn't sit down 4 years ago and calculate the value of DBISAM 4.x
based upon how long it would be in service. To do so now, in retrospect,
is asinine.

DBISAM is giving me no more and no less valuable service today than it
was 4 years ago when I bought it. Time of use has nothing to do with it.
I would have thought the same of DBISAM if it had cost me 100 times the
original purchase price. I don't sit down everyday and think, "Wow! Y is
only costing me $x per day. What a great value!" And I surely don't say
"You know, this is such a great daily value, I'll send him some more money!"

>
> Look, I'll say it for the last time - if you don't want to purchase the
> support plan, then don't.  But don't come in here complaining that we're
> being unethical or ripping you off, because those are serious charges and
> you are really pushing things too far.  You got what you paid for, and now
> it has come to an end.
>

I already said I wouldn't. But don't accuse me of saying things I didn't
say. I never said you ripped me off. In fact, if you would take the time
to re-read my previous post, you'll probably find that I said that I
would have paid a *MORE* for DBISAM if you had asked for it when I
bought it. You set the price, not me.