Roy/Tim - as a side note from my other thread....I'd like to suggest you guys to seriously
consider going to a modern Forum system like vBulletin.

I use vBulletin for 2 forums and the latest versions are great, secure and stable....and
just an overall great experience for the end user (and easier to read and follow).

Let me know if you have any questions about it, but it would be a real nice move and the
cost is really not that much.

www.vbulletin.com


As well....I don't know if it's me....but I find the website is very slow and often have
to do alot of refreshes to get the page up!  It's been like this for a long time...and
having moved into a rental with a completely different internet connection, I'm still
getting a big lag on this website.

Cheers,
Fred

Fred


1. Its nowt to do with me - I'm just a user like CodeGears TeamB2- its down to Tim

2. Elevate's newsgroup software is written by Tim and, I think, is still running in DBISAM

3. No mention of nntp. I, and I suspect many others, access the newsgroups through a news client and I want to keep on doing that.

4. It seems that there are a few unlucky people who have difficulty accessing Tim's website (not just the newsgroups). I don't think there has been any reason discovered for it - different ISPs, different  parts of the world etc so it may just be you're one of those.

Roy Lambert [Team Elevate]

Roy Lambert wrote:
> Fred
> ...
>
> 3. ... I, and I suspect many others, access the newsgroups through a news client and I want to keep on doing that.

+1

> ...


--
Aage J.

"Fred H." <blue@dhfvr.com> wrote in message
news:EA2F3C7B-3095-4F3D-A3BD-8CC7E3198A14@news.elevatesoft.com...
>
> Let me know if you have any questions about it, but it would be a real
> nice move and the
> cost is really not that much.
>

Tim's WebForum is a work of art, and at one time the code was
downloadable it may still be for all I know.
vBulletin is very nice but why change to it when OE works ok ?
Elevate run their own T1 server Tim even wrote his own news
and mail servers that I used from a fixed IP for around 4 years
without problems. Leave it as is it works fine.
Rita

well unfortunately some of us don't use Outlook Express (I haven't used it for years) +
good Newsreaders are really hard to come by these days (Xananews about the only one and
last updated in 2006). I could list out a whole list of advantages over Usenet though,
here are some off the top of my head:

1) Text formatting for emphasis and highlighting quoted posts.....and web links work  
http://www.vbulletin.com/features.php

2) vBulletin is continually being updated and enhanced with all kinds of neat features for
the end-user not available in newsreaders (see link in 1).

3) You can easily employ help from others to moderate the Forum, i.e. "Moderators" which
is very similar to "User Permissions" in ElevateDB.

4) You can attach files and images that will show in a thread/post or at minimal, use
[img] [/img] tags for an outside image that will show in a post.

5) as in a newsreader, you don't have to download all the messages (and those with
attachments) in a group, therefore taking up alot of time and unnecessary hard drive space
which is necessary in order to do a full body message search (not so with just headers in
a newsreader).

6) Flexible and comprehensive search system

7) The ability to Private Message other "members" within the forum software

8) Can activate RSS on all or certain forums (groups) in your main board in case others
use RSS and want to follow the board via that method

9) Automatically be notified when someone has replied to any thread you started or
contributed to, which is a great feature to stay on top of threads you started or
following.  In the case here....I have to enter my email address to post, but I don't
receive any email notices that you guys have replied to the thread !  This obviously would
cut down on the time folks could reply back to threads since they would get a notice via
email whenever someone replied with a link directly to that thread/post.

10) Finally...Edit your posts!  There's no way to edit your post here!!  So you only get
one shot to make it right!  Ahhhh!!

That's just on the top of my head folks, but the list goes on and on.  vBulletin now has a
section now for "projects" and "blogs" and with the new version in the works (v4)...a
Content Management System (CMS) will be included.  Really amazing what those guys are doing.

I mean no disrespect to Tim if this is his Usenet system and in which obviously is and has
worked fine, but with the advent of boards like vBulletin that offer all kinds of helpful
features - Usenet really is not as user-friendly anymore and pretty much behind the times.
Even Codegear finally went with a web based forum after all these years!

Anyway....it's just a suggestion, not everyone will agree, but I have to give my feedback
and 2 cents (sorry...just that kind of guy), but the technology for forums on the web are
really way ahead of what Usenet can offer esp. when it comes to being a better overall
experience for everyone and for a business...to help bring the customer closer to home.

Fred

>well unfortunately some of us don't use Outlook Express

Neither do I - I wrote my own mail and news client

>1) Text formatting for emphasis and highlighting quoted posts




>2) vBulletin is continually being updated and enhanced with all kinds of neat features for
>the end-user not available in newsreaders (see link in 1).

Are they wanted?

>3) You can easily employ help from others to moderate the Forum, i.e. "Moderators" which
>is very similar to "User Permissions" in ElevateDB.

Over the years that I have been an ElevateSoftware customer I think Tim has "moderated" the newsgroups about three times. Each time it was a warning that if people didn't cool it he would start moderating the groups. Thankfully its never happened. Tim accepts almost any post onto his newsgroups and that's how I'd like it to stay.

Have you seen some of the discussion on CodeGears ngs about moderators?

>4) You can attach files and images that will show in a thread/post or at minimal, use
>[img] [/img] tags for an outside image that will show in a post.

OK it might be more convienient to have them in body occasionally but have you heard of attachments....

>5) as in a newsreader, you don't have to download all the messages (and those with
>attachments) in a group, therefore taking up alot of time and unnecessary hard drive space
>which is necessary in order to do a full body message search (not so with just headers in
>a newsreader).

But by downloading the body you have an offline resource and will continue to do so when the other system crashes like Borland's

>6) Flexible and comprehensive search system

Tim's could be improved, but its certainly usable.

>7) The ability to Private Message other "members" within the forum software

Ah so we have a substitute for email.

>8) Can activate RSS on all or certain forums (groups) in your main board in case others
>use RSS and want to follow the board via that method

WPTools switched to RSS and it stinks. Addict is moving to an on line board and I hate it.

>9) Automatically be notified when someone has replied to any thread you started or
>contributed to, which is a great feature to stay on top of threads you started or
>following. In the case here....I have to enter my email address to post, but I don't
>receive any email notices that you guys have replied to the thread ! This obviously would
>cut down on the time folks could reply back to threads since they would get a notice via
>email whenever someone replied with a link directly to that thread/post.

I sort of like the idea, but I also hate the idea of how much useful info I'd miss by only reading responses to my posts which is the sort of behaviour this would encourage.

>10) Finally...Edit your posts! There's no way to edit your post here!! So you only get
>one shot to make it right! Ahhhh!!

No way do I want that unless you can only edit it until there has been any reply. Just think of the fun of rewriting history all the time.


Sorry but we obviously have totally different views of what a newsgroup should be and what it should offer. My final point would be that we have more of a community here than a newsgroup. Of all those I subscribe to this is undoubtably the best in terms of behaviour and helpfullness.


Roy Lambert

> Neither do I - I wrote my own mail and news client

ahhh....no wonder why you're hesitant for change! =D

>2) vBulletin is continually being updated and enhanced with all kinds of neat features for
>the end-user not available in newsreaders (see link in 1).

>Are they wanted?

Sure....I want them! =D  Trust me, though.....once you get your hands on the little
features here and there and that goes beyond simple text - it just makes for a total
better experience.  In fact, I hardly ever use Usenet / XanaNews anymore as I find it too
cumbersome for me.  Too many options to get it set up and going, complicated to sync
between 2 computers esp when moving or updating my computers since backing up the data is
also not that straight-forward.  I used it before alot back then, but nowadays...I hardly
ever do Usenet anymore.  Hard to find a good Usenet server if your ISP doesn't have
everything either.  Luckily Tim, at least, has the web version of his, so that's how I'm
visiting it.

Another handy feature I forgot to mention - inline POLLS.  Great feature when anyone wants
to see what the members feel about a certain topic.....start a Poll !

On that note....on a web forum you have to sign up and become a member...therefore again
more community-like and alot more personal than Usenet since folks can have their own
profile with a username, signature, avatar and whatever else and from there also allow
others to easily track down posts from certain users (like you!).

>3) You can easily employ help from others to moderate the Forum, i.e. "Moderators" which
>is very similar to "User Permissions" in ElevateDB.

>Over the years that I have been an ElevateSoftware customer I think Tim has "moderated"
the newsgroups about three times. Each time it was >a warning that if people didn't cool
it he would start moderating the groups. Thankfully its never happened. Tim accepts almost
any post onto his >newsgroups and that's how I'd like it to stay.

>Have you seen some of the discussion on CodeGears ngs about moderators?

Not to say that the Forum would get out of hand, but it's nice to have the ability to
employ help that have the power/permission to make changes/edit/move posts where needed,
create Sticky Notes or promote threads to Sticky Notes, etc.  A Moderator (like you could
be) really is just there to make sure the Forum stays clean, but without having full
control over the Management side of the Forum.

TBH - I have not really followed the CodeGear forums....I only view the Non-Technical
group occasionally and I have not seen any discussion about the moderators there.

>4) You can attach files and images that will show in a thread/post or at minimal, use
>[img] [/img] tags for an outside image that will show in a post.

>OK it might be more convienient to have them in body occasionally but have you heard of
attachments....

YES - I see it right there.  BUT! What if one wants to attach 2 or more images or
files, though?  Have you seen what attachments look like in a web forum?

>5) as in a newsreader, you don't have to download all the messages (and those with
>attachments) in a group, therefore taking up alot of time and unnecessary hard drive space
>which is necessary in order to do a full body message search (not so with just headers in
>a newsreader).

>But by downloading the body you have an offline resource and will continue to do so when
the other system crashes like Borland's.

Borland's or CodeGear's?  CodeGear is using a Java-based Web Forum it looks like
now....one I've never seen before - I figure it's probably one they developed with their
own tools (java based forums are not widely popular either).  That's probably their
problem (too server intensive) or simply they have too much going behind the scenes on the
server.  No idea....all I can say is I have a super solid host (www.httpme.com) that's
fast and stable and awesome support...and my vB boards are solid as well (PHP based).  I
once had a phpBB board some years ago...but finally went with vB for security and the rate
of enhancement (cost is really neglible).

Offline resource??  I don't know where you live, but in Texas and where I travel the
world....no problem with getting online!  We need the internet anyway to at least get our
emails!

I don't know what Tim uses, but I'm indeed experiencing a drag in his website for a long
time now that's quite frustrating as I don't get this with any other website.  I was with
Time Warner before and now I'm with AT&T U-Verse - in 2 different locations...and it's
still the same - always slow to load and hangs on nearly every page.....and I'm only in Texas.

>7) The ability to Private Message other "members" within the forum software

>Ah so we have a substitute for email.

Yes...but email addresses are still, by default, hidden from everyone - unless someone
really wants to publicize their email address...then they have the option to do that in
their Profile settings.  I'm guessing by that comment, though, that you're really not
familiar with web forums, Roy - Private Messaging has been part of this kind of system for
a long time already.

>8) Can activate RSS on all or certain forums (groups) in your main board in case others
>use RSS and want to follow the board via that method

> WPTools switched to RSS and it stinks. Addict is moving to an on line board and I hate it.

RSS is typically for news related stuff, but with vB adding that feature to their forum
software....it gives Board Administrators now the ability to broadcast their sub-forums in
RSS as well.  RSS is not for everyone, but it's hear to stay and new way of broadcasting
news in a straight-forward format that alot of folks out there enjoy.  Wanna bet that
there are more RSS Feed Readers than Usenet Readers!?  Again...it's not necessary, but it
adds to a better user experience for those that really like to use RSS.  I use RSS as well
for somethings via iGoogle.

>9) Automatically be notified when someone has replied to any thread you started or
>contributed to, which is a great feature to stay on top of threads you started or
>following. In the case here....I have to enter my email address to post, but I don't
>receive any email notices that you guys have replied to the thread ! This obviously would
>cut down on the time folks could reply back to threads since they would get a notice via
>email whenever someone replied with a link directly to that thread/post.

>I sort of like the idea, but I also hate the idea of how much useful info I'd miss by
only reading responses to my posts which is the sort of >behaviour this would encourage.

Ahh Come on Roy....nobody would stop you from reading all you want - it's just a very
convenient feature to advise you via email if someone had posted to your thread or any
thread you contributed to.  That way, you wouldn't have to continually monitor a thread to
see if someone posted in it.  Alot of folks don't visit a Forum everyday or don't have
time to visit them either regularly...not to mention the time it would take to go find all
the threads you were involved in to see if there were any replies!

>10) Finally...Edit your posts! There's no way to edit your post here!! So you only get
>one shot to make it right! Ahhhh!!

>No way do I want that unless you can only edit it until there has been any reply. Just
think of the fun of rewriting history all the time.

LOL!  OK, what about my double-post in the other thread?  I would have loved to have
edited it and posted what I really tried to post.  Not my fault though...the site hung on
me again and had to go back and forth with browser and I didn't realize that my post got
wiped out and ended up being your full post when I clicked "Post Reply"!

>Sorry but we obviously have totally different views of what a newsgroup should be and
what it should offer. My final point would be that we have >more of a community here than
a newsgroup. Of all those I subscribe to this is undoubtably the best in terms of
behaviour and helpfullness.

We indeed have different views, Roy, but I gather from some of your comments that you're
not very familiar with web forums either, so please....go and try the various web forums
out there, become a member and you'll soon see it's really a nice modern way to view
community dialog among members with all kinds of flexibility.

And I TOTALLY agree 110% - a "community" feel is very important and hence why the likes of
vBulletin are really trying to enhance their software to bring people closer together with
all kinds of features.  Most folks don't give feedback, but the only reason why I'm
bringing up web forums is that they are indeed here to stay and a step in the right
direction of making a better community and not feel "boxed in" like older ways.  Don't get
me wrong....I come from the days of VMS Systems in College...and BBS Boards on dialup. LOL
This stuff, though, has definitely come along way to bring people closer together.

As an example....here are a few vB forums:

http://rankings.big-boards.com/?filter=vBulletin,all
* this site ranks public vBulletin boards by number of posts

http://www.wilderssecurity.com/
http://acapella.harmony-central.com/forums/
http://www.howardforums.com/

Fred

>> Neither do I - I wrote my own mail and news client
>
>ahhh....no wonder why you're hesitant for change!

Nah - I'm just a Luddite

>Another handy feature I forgot to mention - inline POLLS. Great feature when anyone wants
>to see what the members feel about a certain topic.....start a Poll !

Yes but I'd start a poll to get NULL = EmptyString reinstated and Tim would ban me

>On that note....on a web forum you have to sign up and become a member...therefore again
>more community-like and alot more personal than Usenet since folks can have their own
>profile with a username, signature, avatar and whatever else and from there also allow
>others to easily track down posts from certain users (like you!).

On that basis Facebook is a community.......

>>3) You can easily employ help from others to moderate the Forum, i.e. "Moderators" which
>>is very similar to "User Permissions" in ElevateDB.
>
>>Over the years that I have been an ElevateSoftware customer I think Tim has "moderated"
>the newsgroups about three times. Each time it was >a warning that if people didn't cool
>it he would start moderating the groups. Thankfully its never happened. Tim accepts almost
>any post onto his >newsgroups and that's how I'd like it to stay.
>
>>Have you seen some of the discussion on CodeGears ngs about moderators?
>
>Not to say that the Forum would get out of hand, but it's nice to have the ability to
>employ help that have the power/permission to make changes/edit/move posts where needed,

NO! DEFINITELY NOT! They do that on CodeGear and it irritates the hell out of me. The assumption is that everyone is accessing the ng online so if you use something like OE you've lost the thread.

>>4) You can attach files and images that will show in a thread/post or at minimal, use
>>[img] [/img] tags for an outside image that will show in a post.
>
>>OK it might be more convienient to have them in body occasionally but have you heard of
>attachments....
>
>YES - I see it right there. BUT! What if one wants to attach 2 or more images or
>files, though? Have you seen what attachments look like in a web forum?

Not really - I try to avoid web forums

>I don't know what Tim uses, but I'm indeed experiencing a drag in his website for a long
>time now that's quite frustrating as I don't get this with any other website. I was with
>Time Warner before and now I'm with AT&T U-Verse - in 2 different locations...and it's
>still the same - always slow to load and hangs on nearly every page.....and I'm only in Texas.

As an illustration as to how weird it gets I can load Torry on my notebook with IE or Firefox but not with Maxthon. On another PC I can use Maxthon but not IE.

>>7) The ability to Private Message other "members" within the forum software
>
>>Ah so we have a substitute for email.
>
>Yes...but email addresses are still, by default, hidden from everyone - unless someone
>really wants to publicize their email address...then they have the option to do that in
>their Profile settings. I'm guessing by that comment, though, that you're really not
>familiar with web forums, Roy - Private Messaging has been part of this kind of system for
>a long time already.

I am I just don't like them

>>8) Can activate RSS on all or certain forums (groups) in your main board in case others
>>use RSS and want to follow the board via that method
>
>> WPTools switched to RSS and it stinks. Addict is moving to an on line board and I hate it.
>
>RSS is typically for news related stuff, but with vB adding that feature to their forum
>software....it gives Board Administrators now the ability to broadcast their sub-forums in
>RSS as well. RSS is not for everyone, but it's hear to stay and new way of broadcasting
>news in a straight-forward format that alot of folks out there enjoy. Wanna bet that
>there are more RSS Feed Readers than Usenet Readers!? Again...it's not necessary, but it
>adds to a better user experience for those that really like to use RSS. I use RSS as well
>for somethings via iGoogle.

There's a lot of Twitter users out there as well, at least 0.5% of them are using it for something sane. Just thought I'd throw that in to confuse.

Now are we talking Readers = software packages or Readers = users of the software?

>Ahh Come on Roy....nobody would stop you from reading all you want

Agreed, but human nature being what it is if you have something that's telling you when to read that's the only time you read and you'll just look at your bit.

>
>>10) Finally...Edit your posts! There's no way to edit your post here!! So you only get
>>one shot to make it right! Ahhhh!!
>
>>No way do I want that unless you can only edit it until there has been any reply. Just
>think of the fun of rewriting history all the time.
>
>LOL! OK, what about my double-post in the other thread? I would have loved to have
>edited it and posted what I really tried to post. Not my fault though...the site hung on
>me again and had to go back and forth with browser and I didn't realize that my post got
>wiped out and ended up being your full post when I clicked "Post Reply"!

If you used a newsclient that wouldn't have happened - you could have taken a couple of days to write your message, honing the meaning selecting the ideal words before posting.

>We indeed have different views, Roy, but I gather from some of your comments that you're
>not very familiar with web forums either, so please....go and try the various web forums
>out there, become a member and you'll soon see it's really a nice modern way to view
>community dialog among members with all kinds of flexibility.

I am but as I say I don't like them. I haven't joined Facebook or FriendsReunited either maybe I'm just a grouchy old man.

Roy Lambert

Fred,

<< Roy/Tim - as a side note from my other thread....I'd like to suggest you
guys to seriously consider going to a modern Forum system like vBulletin.

I use vBulletin for 2 forums and the latest versions are great, secure and
stable....and just an overall great experience for the end user (and easier
to read and follow).

Let me know if you have any questions about it, but it would be a real nice
move and the cost is really not that much. >>

It's not the cost, it's the NNTP access that is an issue (and has always
been the issue, really).

<< As well....I don't know if it's me....but I find the website is very slow
and often have to do alot of refreshes to get the page up!  It's been like
this for a long time...and having moved into a rental with a completely
different internet connection, I'm still getting a big lag on this website.
>>

Are you using any personal firewalls, or something like BitDefender ?  We've
had various reports of slowness, only to have it end up being something
running on the machine itself that was causing the issue.

Are you experiencing slowness for the entire web site ?

--
Tim Young
Elevate Software
www.elevatesoft.com

On the forum bit, just giving you guys my feedback on that and outlining the clear
advantages over NNTP these days.  As in any business..it's important to keep up with the
times.....and the competition.

>Are you using any personal firewalls, or something like BitDefender ?  We've
>had various reports of slowness, only to have it end up being something
>running on the machine itself that was causing the issue.

>Are you experiencing slowness for the entire web site ?

Yeah, I use Kasperky here...back then v7 and now v8 and the site has always been slow for
me as a whole; and yep...practically every page hangs - it's really strange as I can't
think of any site I typically go to that acts this way.  I'll disable Kaspersky and see
what happens and report back.  I've got a 2nd laptop as well...will try the same thing and
let you know what happens.

Cheers!
Fred