(I posted this in the wrong thread first)

in another thread Trinione wrote:
> I would say that Tim made a most valiant and commendable attempt to integrate
> MySQL into EWB. Most valiant. That took up considerable time and we were patient as we expected it would
> open up a easier path to shared web hosts. However, for reasons well explained it could not happen.

I did a bunch of programs using EWB + PHP, but have since almost entirely moved away from PHP and to object Pascal for the server (Windows + some Linux) for the last eight months.  I did it using EWB+Mormot (open source) which compiles with both Delphi and NewPascal (free FreePascal variant) and talks to all major databases.

Some observations:
- PHP database support is lacklustre compared to Mormot
- run time errors are common in PHP, whereas Pascal catches most at compile time
- PHP debugging is not as easy/robust as Dephi/NewPascal IDE
- PHP language is changing leaps and bounds, compatibility is a pain, Object Pascal is mature, we don't need to keep rewriting
- mormot talks JSON, EWB talks JSON, it takes one function call to match mormot's JSON with EWB's tdataset.
- mormot + NewPascal/FreePascal are open source, or you can use it with Delphi Pro if you want, I use both options
- PHP is harder to secure
- working with pascal in both client and server is so much easier than remembering rules

Mormot is used in some huge database systems, it really scales well.  There are examples of people running sites with thousands of concurrent users (eg. Poker site)

Okay, but what about cheap hosting?  What Tim was aiming for (and I was too) was running on a cheap shared  hosting plan.  That was a typical plan last year.

But now, with today's available, cheap virtual machine hosting is making it possible to run you own VMs (Windows or Linux) for $4 US a month in other people's data centres.  Obviously you can do it with Amazon, but locally you will find competition has lower prices although probably with less full uptime.


> I suspect that with the release of Delphi 10.2 and the Linux ability the coming 6 months shall be very exciting!

It was released this week.  Very unexciting actually, as Embarcadero made Linux only available for $4k enterprise users.  I've protested, and I suggest you do too.  But NewPascal has been used for several years with mORmot+Linux servers in heavy production use.  

I have always been a Delphi user since Version 1, and I am happy to pay reasonable rates for software.  But with Embarcadero placing Linux at four times the price I had been paying for regular Delphi, I have lost patience with them.  I still have a lot of code invested in Delphi so I'll keep buying Pro., but am migrating new *server* projects to NewPascal.

EWB continues to offer excellent value and support.  I'm happy to renew and spread the word so others will join our developer community.

Erick
http://www.erickengelke.com
http://www.erickengelke.com

I bit the bullet and purchased Enterprise about 5 years ago.  Since then, it's only costing about $850/year to get all updates.

erickengelke wrote:

(I posted this in the wrong thread first)

in another thread Trinione wrote:
> I would say that Tim made a most valiant and commendable attempt to integrate
> MySQL into EWB. Most valiant. That took up considerable time and we were patient as we expected it would
> open up a easier path to shared web hosts. However, for reasons well explained it could not happen.

I did a bunch of programs using EWB + PHP, but have since almost entirely moved away from PHP and to object Pascal for the server (Windows + some Linux) for the last eight months.  I did it using EWB+Mormot (open source) which compiles with both Delphi and NewPascal (free FreePascal variant) and talks to all major databases.

Some observations:
- PHP database support is lacklustre compared to Mormot
- run time errors are common in PHP, whereas Pascal catches most at compile time
- PHP debugging is not as easy/robust as Dephi/NewPascal IDE
- PHP language is changing leaps and bounds, compatibility is a pain, Object Pascal is mature, we don't need to keep rewriting
- mormot talks JSON, EWB talks JSON, it takes one function call to match mormot's JSON with EWB's tdataset.
- mormot + NewPascal/FreePascal are open source, or you can use it with Delphi Pro if you want, I use both options
- PHP is harder to secure
- working with pascal in both client and server is so much easier than remembering rules

Mormot is used in some huge database systems, it really scales well.  There are examples of people running sites with thousands of concurrent users (eg. Poker site)

Okay, but what about cheap hosting?  What Tim was aiming for (and I was too) was running on a cheap shared  hosting plan.  That was a typical plan last year.

But now, with today's available, cheap virtual machine hosting is making it possible to run you own VMs (Windows or Linux) for $4 US a month in other people's data centres.  Obviously you can do it with Amazon, but locally you will find competition has lower prices although probably with less full uptime.


> I suspect that with the release of Delphi 10.2 and the Linux ability the coming 6 months shall be very exciting!

It was released this week.  Very unexciting actually, as Embarcadero made Linux only available for $4k enterprise users.  I've protested, and I suggest you do too.  But NewPascal has been used for several years with mORmot+Linux servers in heavy production use.  

I have always been a Delphi user since Version 1, and I am happy to pay reasonable rates for software.  But with Embarcadero placing Linux at four times the price I had been paying for regular Delphi, I have lost patience with them.  I still have a lot of code invested in Delphi so I'll keep buying Pro., but am migrating new *server* projects to NewPascal.

EWB continues to offer excellent value and support.  I'm happy to renew and spread the word so others will join our developer community.

Erick
http://www.erickengelke.com
http://www.erickengelke.com

Erick,

<< Okay, but what about cheap hosting?  What Tim was aiming for (and I was too) was running on a cheap shared  hosting plan.  That was a typical plan last year. >>

Actually, our aim is to make it so that the EWB Web Server can run back-end Object Pascal code in the same way that it does currently at design-time in the IDE.  That's the next step after 2.06 when I start making over the EWB Web Server to be more full-featured.  The end goal is to make it so that we can offer hosting here, therefore making it irrelevant to the developer as to what to use for hosting/back-end.  We believe that it will be a pretty compelling offer to provide out-of-the-box web development from front-to-back, all using the same language and with one-click deployment.  The back-end functionality, and how it relates to developing the front-end, is *the* most confusing aspect for developers coming from desktop environments.

Tim Young
Elevate Software
www.elevatesoft.com

erickengelke wrote:

(I posted this in the wrong thread first)

in another thread Trinione wrote:
> I would say that Tim made a most valiant and commendable attempt to integrate
> MySQL into EWB. Most valiant. That took up considerable time and we were patient as we expected it would
> open up a easier path to shared web hosts. However, for reasons well explained it could not happen.


Sorry. Now seeing this. I posted a Reply in that other thread.

Tim Young [Elevate Software] wrote:

<< That's the next step after 2.06 when I start making over the EWB Web Server to be more full-featured. >>

That would be fantastic! The current EWB WS is nice, and I use it. However, as discussed elsewhere there are some additional features you intend on adding that shall add tremendous value, functionality, ease of development and clarity to the product.


<< The end goal is to make it so that we can offer hosting here, therefore making it irrelevant to the developer as to what to use for hosting/back-end. >>

I still see the hosting aspect as being relevant though. Is it reasonable to expect that with a Linux EWB and EDB that one can run this on any Linux VM out there? I have clients with established hosting that I would need to add the EWB/EDB apps to.


<< The back-end functionality, and how it relates to developing the front-end, is *the* most confusing aspect for developers coming from desktop environments. >>

Yes. Absolutely. Having done tons of research and less actual development over the years - this future edition of the EWB and EDB products shall bring clarity, focus and direction to many. [insert two thumbs up icon here].

On 3/25/2017 9:56 PM, erickengelke wrote:
> It was released this week.  Very unexciting actually, as Embarcadero made Linux only available for $4k enterprise users.  I've protested, and I suggest you do too.  But NewPascal has been used for several years with mORmot+Linux servers in heavy production use.

The pricing aspect is definitely quite puzzling - i'm curious what the
thinking was behind this (vs allowing linux compiler on Pro and
Enterprise would keep things like DataSnap and Firedac - so those who
use it can buy it).

For us use of ARC makes it a non-starter irrespective of price since it
means we cannot easily port our VCL based code which is still majority
of our business.

This decision also means that nobody in our office (since we all have
Pro) is not even going to experiment with Linux support for one-off or
side projects now.

This is what happened with mobile/firemonkey - it was quite crappy for a
while (some might say still is) so our mobile work is not using delphi.

Raul

On 3/27/2017 12:51 PM, Tim Young [Elevate Software] wrote:
> Actually, our aim is to make it so that the EWB Web Server can run back-end Object Pascal code in the same way that it does currently at design-time in the IDE.  That's the next step after 2.06 when I start making over the EWB Web Server to be more full-featured.  The end goal is to make it so that we can offer hosting here, therefore making it irrelevant to the developer as to what to use for hosting/back-end.  We believe that it will be a pretty compelling offer to provide out-of-the-box web development from front-to-back, all using the same language and with one-click deployment.  The back-end functionality, and how it relates to developing the front-end, is *the* most confusing aspect for developers coming from desktop environments.

Cool.

I assume you have delphi enterprise anyways so whether thru that or
freepascal you can ship linux based ewb server as well. If that can then
run object pascal and provide DB layer then that's all one really needs.

Raul

Tim Young [Elevate Software] wrote:

> Actually, our aim is to make it so that the EWB Web Server can run back-end Object Pascal code in the same way that it does currently at design-time in the IDE.

How is this different to "Node" which I hear is all the rage? Being compatible with a Node server would give you a wider facility methinks?

--

Matthew Jones

Raul,

<< I assume you have delphi enterprise anyways so whether thru that or freepascal you can ship linux based ewb server as well. If that can then run object pascal and provide DB layer then that's all one really needs. >>

Correct.  And no more needing to shut down the EWB Web Server during deployment - just deploy and the new code is picked up immediately.

Tim Young
Elevate Software
www.elevatesoft.com

Matthew,

<< How is this different to "Node" which I hear is all the rage? Being compatible with a Node server would give you a wider facility methinks? >>

1) It's JavaScript, so you're back to multiple languages.  Or, are you proposing that we put in an external interface for Node.JS ?  If so, then that's a non-starter, for a lot of reasons, but primarily 2).

2) The Node.JS ecosystem would be a nightmare for Object Pascal developers to navigate.  It's dependency hell.

3) WASM is going to change the JS landscape significantly, and things like Node.JS are going to become less and less attractive as developers revert to using the languages that they wanted to use instead of JS in the first place.  This means that the primary reason for even using Node.JS in the first place (single source) will be made a moot point.

Tim Young
Elevate Software
www.elevatesoft.com