Okay, I've got to nail down another design issue here before I upload a new
build, and it affects the whole "re-skin a form" video, so I wanted to run
this by everyone.

Right now the forms are "pre-built" in the sense that there's a caption bar
and a client area (scrollable).  This is pretty standard stuff on Windows
and other desktop systems, and covers things nicely for most cases.
However, based upon requests from you guys/gals, I'm starting to develop
complete Caption Bar/Client property trees in the TForm (and descendant)
controls that is starting to get a bit large in scope.  In other words,
these sub-property trees are almost as large as the outer property tree for
the form control because they include border, padding, etc.  This makes
navigation in the Object Inspector very difficult.

One other issue is mobile: on mobile the caption bar tends to be just
another client area that contain various controls, icons, etc.  In EWB 2,
any control can have a client area that can contain other controls (if you
tell it you want it to be so), but *only one client area*.  This is a
problem for the existing form design, in that the client area is the area
that you put controls on, but the caption bar is off-limits for controls.

So, what I'm thinking is that it's time to get a little more granular with
the entire form approach.  I'm thinking that a base form will simply be a
transparent rectangle that does virtually nothing in terms of a canned
design, but allows you to change *any* aspect of it.  You will also be able
to use scrollbars with it, if you want.

I will then add 2 new panels: a TCaptionBar control and a TScrollPanel
control.  The TCaptionBar will default to looking like a form caption, but
will also allow you to drop in edits, icons, etc.  The TScrollPanel will be
a panel that can have scroll bars, and will also, of course, allow you to
drop controls on it.  With these two controls, you can still easily build a
traditional desktop-looking form, if you want.  It will also allow you to
choose at what level you want scrollbars to come into effect.  This is
important for allowing fixed header/footer panels, but a scrollable client
area.

This will also help alleviate the current problem we have with potential
customers thinking that the only way the forms can look is like "Windows
forms".  This has been an on-going issue since EWB 1.

What do you think ?  Of course, if you need more information on any of this
before answering, just ask.

Thanks,

Tim Young
Elevate Software
www.elevatesoft.com

On 19/02/15 09:00, Tim Young [Elevate Software] wrote:
>
> So, what I'm thinking is that it's time to get a little more granular
> with the entire form approach.  I'm thinking that a base form will
> simply be a transparent rectangle that does virtually nothing in terms
> of a canned design, but allows you to change *any* aspect of it.  You
> will also be able to use scrollbars with it, if you want.
>
> I will then add 2 new panels: a TCaptionBar control and a TScrollPanel
> control.  The TCaptionBar will default to looking like a form caption,
> but will also allow you to drop in edits, icons, etc.  The TScrollPanel
> will be a panel that can have scroll bars, and will also, of course,
> allow you to drop controls on it.  With these two controls, you can
> still easily build a traditional desktop-looking form, if you want.  It
> will also allow you to choose at what level you want scrollbars to come
> into effect.  This is important for allowing fixed header/footer panels,
> but a scrollable client area.
>
>

Tim

Sounds reasonable. Could always create a TWinForm that is a combination
of a TForm and TCaptionBar if a Windows style form is required. You
could probably provide this and just have a property to hide the caption
like EWB1 can do now.

The only consideration is limiting the proliferation of similar controls
that just do slightly different things. e.g. TForm, TBasicForm,
TScrollForm, etc. Providing primitives that can be built up like you are
suggesting will probably avoid this situation which is goodness.

--
Rick

On 19/02/15 09:25, Rick wrote:
> On 19/02/15 09:00, Tim Young [Elevate Software] wrote:
>>
>> So, what I'm thinking is that it's time to get a little more granular
>> with the entire form approach.  I'm thinking that a base form will
>> simply be a transparent rectangle that does virtually nothing in terms
>> of a canned design, but allows you to change *any* aspect of it.  You
>> will also be able to use scrollbars with it, if you want.
>>
>> I will then add 2 new panels: a TCaptionBar control and a TScrollPanel
>> control.  The TCaptionBar will default to looking like a form caption,
>> but will also allow you to drop in edits, icons, etc.  The TScrollPanel
>> will be a panel that can have scroll bars, and will also, of course,
>> allow you to drop controls on it.  With these two controls, you can
>> still easily build a traditional desktop-looking form, if you want.  It
>> will also allow you to choose at what level you want scrollbars to come
>> into effect.  This is important for allowing fixed header/footer panels,
>> but a scrollable client area.
>>
>>
>
> Tim
>
> Sounds reasonable. Could always create a TWinForm that is a combination
> of a TForm and TCaptionBar if a Windows style form is required. You
> could probably provide this and just have a property to hide the caption
> like EWB1 can do now.
>
> The only consideration is limiting the proliferation of similar controls
> that just do slightly different things. e.g. TForm, TBasicForm,
> TScrollForm, etc. Providing primitives that can be built up like you are
> suggesting will probably avoid this situation which is goodness.
>

One extra thing... The form will still need to be draggable and
(hopefully) runtime mouse resizable. So the TCaptionBar would need to
have a part to play in that.

--
Rick

On 2/18/2015 5:00 PM, Tim Young [Elevate Software] wrote:
> I'm thinking that a base form will
> simply be a transparent rectangle that does virtually nothing in terms
> of a canned design, but allows you to change *any* aspect of it.  You
> will also be able to use scrollbars with it, if you want.
>
> I will then add 2 new panels: a TCaptionBar control and a TScrollPanel
>
> What do you think ?  Of course, if you need more information on any of
> this before answering, just ask.

Tim,

I'll have to think about it some more but my first comment is that it
sounds good.

Some of the app ideas we have we actually don't want it to look like
windows at all but rather like a more modern web app and also work well
on mobile.

I'd be more than willing to do some extra work (add TCaptionBar etc) to
make it windows like for those cases where it is needed and sounds like
this new model will be more flexible in every way.

Raul

Hi Tim,

<< So, what I'm thinking is that it's time to get a little more granular with
the entire form approach.  I'm thinking that a base form will simply be a
transparent rectangle that does virtually nothing in terms of a canned
design, but allows you to change *any* aspect of it.  You will also be able
to use scrollbars with it, if you want.

I will then add 2 new panels: a TCaptionBar control and a TScrollPanel
control.  The TCaptionBar will default to looking like a form caption, but
will also allow you to drop in edits, icons, etc.  The TScrollPanel will be
a panel that can have scroll bars, and will also, of course, allow you to
drop controls on it.  With these two controls, you can still easily build a
traditional desktop-looking form, if you want.  It will also allow you to
choose at what level you want scrollbars to come into effect.  This is
important for allowing fixed header/footer panels, but a scrollable client
area.

This will also help alleviate the current problem we have with potential
customers thinking that the only way the forms can look is like "Windows
forms".  This has been an on-going issue since EWB 1. >>

I really like the sound of that. It should provide maximum flexibility.

= Steve

Tim,

that sounds really good for me.

In my web applications I have never used forms with the look of desktop forms.
Allowing control on the caption bar (especially with the new layout features) is great - anyway I always simulated that by creating forms without caption and putting a panel on top of the form.

The only case I use Win-like forms are Message Dialogs.

So +1 from me!

Uli

Tim Young [Elevate Software] wrote:

>
> So, what I'm thinking is that it's time to get a little more granular
> with the entire form approach.  I'm thinking that a base form will
> simply be a transparent rectangle that does virtually nothing in
> terms of a canned design, but allows you to change any aspect of it

Sounda a very good idea. Make the "Desktop alike" form a special case.
In all of the applications I have done, I've hidden the caption bar and
border for pretty much all forms. The flexibility of the desktop
metaphor you have, where you can parent forms and hide them etc, makes
for a lovely system, and the web doesn't expect the traditional form
look and feel.

"Tim Young [Elevate Software]" wrote:

>>So, what I'm thinking is that it's time to get a little more granular with
>>the entire form approach.  I'm thinking that a base form will simply be a
>>transparent rectangle that does virtually nothing in terms of a canned
>>design, but allows you to change *any* aspect of it.  You will also be able
>>to use scrollbars with it, if you want.

Tim, this is a big +1 for me.

Our apps all follow the Twitter Bootstrap responsive look 'n' feel. I achieve this using forms arranged against each other in order to create the typical "view areas" of the app. For example, with EWB2, I envisage a form aligned to the top of the browser window (header), one aligned to the left (navigation) and one filling the remainder of the area (content).

Your proposal to increase the form design granularity will greatly assist this way of working, so I'm really happy. My forms are purely containers for other stuff with no real attributes themselves other than a layout and (potentially) a background colour. As a plus, Windows-esque forms can also be created as and when required.

At the same time, why not add the basic auto-grow horizontal and auto-grow vertical capabilities ............. joke ........... kinda

On a final note, I think it'll be really positive for potential EWB2 customers to see some apps that look nothing like Windows.

Cheers
Mark

Opinion: TForm like you said and maybe a descendant TWinForm - a TForm
with TCaptionBar and TScrollPanel? Will be easy for newcomers.