Roy,

<< In some respects a list of "these are never going to appear" is better -
at least then you know there's no point in waiting round hoping. >>

I've got a list a mile long of things that need to be added to EDB, and none
of them are direct DBISAM compatibility features like a NULL/EmptyString
property.  Some of them are, however, things that are in DBISAM that will
also be added to EDB, like copy and rename support for tables and other
objects.  These all need to be implemented, and then I've got to start
getting the Enterprise Server ready for release by the first of next year.
So, while you can expect to see some new features that make life easier, the
compatibility features are having to take a back seat, and probably
permanently.  After a certain point, it really just isn't practical to spend
time on implementing them over other features that are much more necessary.

<< A question not even Tim can answer is would it have been financially
better for him to include some of these smoothing of the way issues which
would have encouraged more people to upgrade. >>

I can most certainly answer this, and the answer is that it would not have
been financially possible to delay EDB any further to add conversion
features for DBISAM.  It would have delayed the product for at least another
year, if it would even be possible to do.  Take a look at the DBISAM changes
documentation in the EDB manual:

http://www.elevatesoft.com/manual?action=mancat&id=edb2&product=d&version=7&category=2

To implement anything other than the most simple conversion tools, such as a
component converter, would require a Delphi and C++Builder code
parser/interpreter/converter along with a code converter for all of the
DBISAM SQL --> EDB SQL changes *to start with*.  How long do you think it
would take to write something like that ?

Can we be done with this conversation now ?  We've been having these same
arguments now for almost the entire life of EDB, and they're a giant drain
on my time and a completely unnecessary distraction.  I've got plans for a
new minor release of DBISAM that spiffs it and DBSYS up a bit (and gets it
ready for D2009), and spending time talking about this is time that could be
spent on worthwhile things like that.

--
Tim Young
Elevate Software
www.elevatesoft.com

Roy,

<< Even I like some (possibly even a lot) of the new stuff, but I also liked
things that have been left behind, and some of the new stuff I just don't
understand the rational behind. >>

Yeah, but the thing that bothers me Roy is that sometimes you're asking me
to justify features and behaviors that are the same in *every single
database server* sold today.  I don't see how I should have to justify
something that is, on its face, a perfectly reasonable path for us to take
with a product that we want to appeal to the most number of potential
customers.

--
Tim Young
Elevate Software
www.elevatesoft.com

Tim

><< Even I like some (possibly even a lot) of the new stuff, but I also liked
>things that have been left behind, and some of the new stuff I just don't
>understand the rational behind. >>
>
>Yeah, but the thing that bothers me Roy is that sometimes you're asking me
>to justify features and behaviors that are the same in *every single
>database server* sold today. I don't see how I should have to justify
>something that is, on its face, a perfectly reasonable path for us to take
>with a product that we want to appeal to the most number of potential
>customers.

It depends of what you mean by justify. I'm generally asking for the "why" rather than the "how" of something. If you don't know and said so I'd accept that. What has happened on occasion is you've attempted to answer something using the standard to explain the standard which simply prompts further questions. At some point you recognise that either I can't understand it, or you can't explain it and stop trying but by then you've probably raised your blood pressure a few points.

You also seem to interpreting my posts as personal attacks on either yourself, ElevateSoft or ElevateDB. I can remember only one case where this was so (the one where I asked if/when the emptystring=NULL switch would make it in), and where a post was open to misinterpretation I've been happy, and I hope speedy, to post an apology or correction.

If I was really as negative about ElevateDB as you seem to think why would I bother spending my time trying to help people with it or posting extensions?

Finally sorry but I can't resist such a wonderful straight line:

*every single database server*

What about DBISAM?

Mind you that does raise an interesting question. Is the database server the application that uses the engine or the engine itself?

Roy Lambert

Tim

>I've got a list a mile long of things that need to be added to EDB, and none
>of them are direct DBISAM compatibility features like a NULL/EmptyString
>property.

Fair enough. At least I now know there's no point in waiting about.

Roy Lambert

Roy,

<< It depends of what you mean by justify. I'm generally asking for the
"why" rather than the "how" of something. If you don't know and said so I'd
accept that. What has happened on occasion is you've attempted to answer
something using the standard to explain the standard which simply prompts
further questions. At some point you recognise that either I can't
understand it, or you can't explain it and stop trying but by then you've
probably raised your blood pressure a few points. >>

What I mean by justify is the "why".  I attempt to explain the "why" to the
best of my ability, but at some point you'll just have to accept that things
are the way they are for a lot of different reasons that are usually
documented elsewhere, especially with respect to SQL standards.

<< You also seem to interpreting my posts as personal attacks on either
yourself, ElevateSoft or ElevateDB. I can remember only one case where this
was so (the one where I asked if/when the emptystring=NULL switch would make
it in), and where a post was open to misinterpretation I've been happy, and
I hope speedy, to post an apology or correction. >>

No, not at all.  What I'm trying to politely say in a very round-about way
is that we can only tolerate a certain level of discussion regarding these
types of things before the discussion simply becomes counter-productive for
everyone, especially us.  If I'm busy with one of these discussions, then
I'm not working or dealing with the day-to-day stuff that needs taken care
of.  I'm already working 11-12 hour days every day, and even I need a break
every now and then.  If the discussions were something that didn't require
my input, then it would be one thing.  But they usually require my constant
input.

<< What about DBISAM? >>

DBISAM's primary goal was BDE compatibility.  EDB's primary goal is standard
SQL behavior that matches that of every other major database server in the
market.

<< Mind you that does raise an interesting question. Is the database server
the application that uses the engine or the engine itself? >>

It depends.  In our case, it's the application that uses the engine.

--
Tim Young
Elevate Software
www.elevatesoft.com

Tim


>But they usually require my constant
>input.

Not if you don't get involved to start with I do remember one thread telling you you hadn't been invited. I think I'll move the more "philosophical" questions over to the discussion ng as soon as I realise they're going that way and you are cordially invited to keep your nose out <vbg>

><< What about DBISAM? >>
>
>DBISAM's primary goal was BDE compatibility. EDB's primary goal is standard
>SQL behavior that matches that of every other major database server in the
>market.

There you go again getting all serious. I told you it was a joke.

Roy Lambert

Tim

to cut it short:

>>What specifically is causing you so much trouble ?

Most of it is history, and when I got stuck, I got help. So there's nothing you should
worry about. Everything was just a bit more complicated and time consuming than I
expected. I'm simply not used to this, maybe I'm just spoiled. But that would be your
fault

You are right, this "more philosophical questions" as Roy stated it, are a waste of your
time. And I'm desperately waiting for the next build, so I will stop them now.

>>And what picture is that ?

(again realising that watching un-dubbed movies and reading english books isn't enough to
be able to translate my thoughts the way I want)

I just started to wonder, if all the enormous effort you are putting into EDB was
worthwile. Because if not, it would mean trouble to your company - and to me, too. Glad to
hear it is one of the other possible "pictures" I thought about.

Heiko

Heiko,

<< Most of it is history, and when I got stuck, I got help. So there's
nothing you should worry about. Everything was just a bit more complicated
and time consuming than I expected. I'm simply not used to this, maybe I'm
just spoiled. But that would be your fault >>

Well, that's one thing that is often missed by people - I like DBISAM a lot
also, and we still use it for our internal systems.  These systems are going
to get converted to ElevateDB by the start of next year, so I'm in the same
boat as everyone else.  I've used RecNo a lot for position information, etc.
and I'm going to have to make adjustments also.  There are things in DBISAM
that are very nice to have.  Unfortunately, they also come with a price for
larger systems.

<< I just started to wonder, if all the enormous effort you are putting into
EDB was worthwile. Because if not, it would mean trouble to your company -
and to me, too. Glad to hear it is one of the other possible "pictures" I
thought about. >>

EDB will not fail, just like DBISAM did not fail.  I will see to that.

--
Tim Young
Elevate Software
www.elevatesoft.com

Roy,

<< Not if you don't get involved to start with I do remember one thread
telling you you hadn't been invited. >>

Yes, but invariably someone says something that requires my input and then
it's all downhill from there. Plus, you know I read every message posted
regardless of whether it's for me.

<< There you go again getting all serious. I told you it was a joke. >>

Sorry.

--
Tim Young
Elevate Software
www.elevatesoft.com

Tim

>Yes, but invariably someone says something that requires my input and then
>it's all downhill from there.

Only because you think it does

>Plus, you know I read every message posted
>regardless of whether it's for me.

I refuse to accept blame just because you're nosey!

Roy Lambert