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EWB 2 Status Update |
Mon, Aug 25 2014 12:19 PM | Permanent Link |
Robert Devine | On 25/08/2014 16:47, Tim Young [Elevate Software] wrote:
> they are probably going to regret doing so I'll admit I was slowly reaching the same conclusion as Mike, so this is encouraging. AngularJS isn't an option since a major point of EWB for me is being able to use my large non-visual OP codebase. However, that requires features such as Interfaces since I'm making heavy use of them these days, and an ability to add .pas files to an EWB project. I'd been checking out the OP competition, rather than JS-based solutions. The ability to use 3rd party visual JS components is also important. Cheers, Bob |
Mon, Aug 25 2014 1:39 PM | Permanent Link |
Tim Young [Elevate Software] Elevate Software, Inc. timyoung@elevatesoft.com | Bob,
<< I'll admit I was slowly reaching the same conclusion as Mike, so this is encouraging. AngularJS isn't an option since a major point of EWB for me is being able to use my large non-visual OP codebase. However, that requires features such as Interfaces since I'm making heavy use of them these days, and an ability to add .pas files to an EWB project. I'd been checking out the OP competition, rather than JS-based solutions. >> Interfaces will be added at some point, provided that they are do-able in terms of behaving exactly as they do with native Object Pascal. I've looked into implementing them a bit, but the devil is always in the details. EWB 2 does have IFDEF support, so you can alter your existing non-UI Delphi code to "adapt" to a given environment. << The ability to use 3rd party visual JS components is also important. >> You can do so now with EWB 1.x, but the issue is always one of how the Object Pascal code interacts with the JS code. However, EWB 2 will certainly make this easier since you can wrap such controls in a much easier way and then install them into the component palette. But, as always, the primary goal is to get to a point where the use of such controls isn't necessary. ------------ Tim Young Elevate Software www.elevatesoft.com |
Mon, Aug 25 2014 3:21 PM | Permanent Link |
Robert Devine | Thanks Tim I can always IFDEF around my class declarations for now.
I've successfully tested a number of external JS components with EWB 1 but it's a wrapper that's needed - so good news indeed. Cheers, Bob |
Tue, Aug 26 2014 9:58 AM | Permanent Link |
Mike consultant | Understood Tim and of course I mean no disrespect. The idea is
brilliant and I have no doubt it will get where it needs to be at some point. I just didn't feel like EWB1 did everything I needed and so opted to use Angular + Twitter BS instead. I expected to be able to build the app in HTML/JS, but i didn't expect it to be elegant. I was pleasantly surprised. |
Tue, Aug 26 2014 10:37 AM | Permanent Link |
Matthew Jones | Mike Margerum wrote:
> I expected to be able to build the app in HTML/JS I think one of the big issues is that of learning Javascript. Which of course is fine, but when you watch Crockford you realise that there is plenty to learn not to do too, and for me using Delphi on both the back and front end has been a big win. The speed of development has allowed me to do the complex stuff easily, and no learning penalty. Crockford video ("Javascript the good parts"): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQVTIJBZook -- Matthew Jones |
Tue, Aug 26 2014 10:44 AM | Permanent Link |
Tim Young [Elevate Software] Elevate Software, Inc. timyoung@elevatesoft.com | Mike,
<< Understood Tim and of course I mean no disrespect. >> None taken. << I expected to be able to build the app in HTML/JS, but i didn't expect it to be elegant. I was pleasantly surprised. >> Yes, it is indeed very elegant, and a very interesting concept/implementation. It just doesn't, IMO, solve the big problems that Object Pascal developers are trying to solve when writing web applications, such as the issues of multiple implementation languages and live, WYSIWYG coding/design, as well as all of the benefits of using Object Pascal with a front-end compiler. These are *hard* problems, which is why everyone isn't rushing to solve them. For example, doing a WYSIWYG IDE for web development almost guarantees four things: 1) You're going to need a top-level language with a type system to front-end JS. 2) You're going to need an interpreter (byte-code, etc.) to handle executing the top-level code in the design-time environment, and it's going to need to match the behavior of the JS code executing in the browser. 3) You're going to have to write a designer that mimics at least 80-90% of the UI capabilities of a browser. 4) You're going to need a runtime library/UI framework that works in both design-time and run-time, and hides the differences from the component/control developer. ------------ Tim Young Elevate Software www.elevatesoft.com |
Tue, Aug 26 2014 12:29 PM | Permanent Link |
Mike consultant | > I think one of the big issues is that of learning Javascript. Which of > course is fine, but when you watch Crockford you realise that there is > plenty to learn not to do too, Yeh lots of weird implicit behaviors for sure. >and for me using Delphi on both the back > and front end has been a big win. The same could be said for javascript and node.js :D Their is a *very* steep learning curve for sure and as long as you don't try to use Javascript like a classical OO language, it's quite powerful and expressive. I could see it being very hard to use to build very large projects with large teams without really good docs. The speed of development has allowed > me to do the complex stuff easily, and no learning penalty. > > Crockford video ("Javascript the good parts"): > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQVTIJBZook > I own and read that book. The fact that its like 200 pages speaks volumes lol. Still, ill say it again. JS in capable hands is incredibly powerful and expressive. I really favor composition over deep object hierarchies. This video from Eric Elliot is really good. Explains why people generally misunderstand what makes JS so powerful. http://vimeo.com/69255635 |
Tue, Aug 26 2014 12:38 PM | Permanent Link |
Matthew Jones | Mike Margerum wrote:
> The same could be said for javascript and node.js :D Indeed, though I had a good think about that once and decided that the limitations were too high for my purposes. I need worker threads that can do really powerful stuff, and Delphi does that effectively for me. Node would be a ton of work to do the same. (Perhaps someone who's spent a year on it could do it, but that isn't me and I have to earn a crust sooner.) I will watch the video - thanks. -- Matthew Jones |
Tue, Aug 26 2014 12:39 PM | Permanent Link |
Mike consultant | On 8/26/2014 10:44 AM, Tim Young [Elevate Software] wrote:
> Mike, > > << Understood Tim and of course I mean no disrespect. >> > > None taken. > > << I expected to be able to build the app in HTML/JS, but i didn't expect it to be elegant. I was pleasantly surprised. >> > > Yes, it is indeed very elegant, and a very interesting concept/implementation. It just doesn't, IMO, solve the big problems that Object Pascal developers are trying to solve when writing web applications, such as the issues of multiple implementation languages and live, WYSIWYG coding/design, as well as all of the benefits of using Object Pascal with a front-end compiler. These are *hard* problems, which is why everyone isn't rushing to solve them. For example, doing a WYSIWYG IDE for web development almost guarantees four things: > > 1) You're going to need a top-level language with a type system to front-end JS. > 2) You're going to need an interpreter (byte-code, etc.) to handle executing the top-level code in the design-time environment, and it's going to need to match the behavior of the JS code executing in the browser. > 3) You're going to have to write a designer that mimics at least 80-90% of the UI capabilities of a browser. > 4) You're going to need a runtime library/UI framework that works in both design-time and run-time, and hides the differences from the component/control developer. > ------------ > I look forward to the monitor the progress you are making Tim and just because i'm not renewing now doesn't mean i'm done using your toolkit. Best of luck. |
Tue, Aug 26 2014 1:07 PM | Permanent Link |
Mike consultant | On 8/26/2014 12:38 PM, Matthew Jones wrote:
> Mike Margerum wrote: > >> The same could be said for javascript and node.js :D > > Indeed, though I had a good think about that once and decided that the > limitations were too high for my purposes. I need worker threads that > can do really powerful stuff, and Delphi does that effectively for me. > Node would be a ton of work to do the same. (Perhaps someone who's > spent a year on it could do it, but that isn't me and I have to earn a > crust sooner.) > > I will watch the video - thanks. > Having to do everything in Async via node.js can be a PITA frankly. Promises do help, but sometimes you want to just rely on the fact that you are in a thread and so can write statements sequentially. Not every web service has to scale to thousands of connections. I don't find JS nearly as useful on the server as I do on the client. I also don't like relying on 45 NPM packages written by people who are going to get bored and move on. The fact that node has no standard library is a big issue. There's other issues i've run into as well. Starting with basic math which JS apparently sucks at: ..1 + .2 = 0.30000000000000004 I did work it all out though and built a fairly capable web app that's every bit as functional as a native app. the biggest reason to try out angular isnt even that you will use it, but it will get you thinking in the right direction. I was inspired to begin working on implementing MVVM patterns in my delphi code. |
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