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Thread OT: Delphi 2007
Thu, Feb 22 2007 6:55 PMPermanent Link

Jon Lloyd Duerdoth
Having just received e-mails about purchasing Delphi 2007
I would like someone to comment about why Delphi 2006
cannot develop for Windows Vista... is there
something specific about Windows Vista that requires
something special about a Delphi developed program?

Jon
Thu, Feb 22 2007 7:21 PMPermanent Link

"Johnnie Norsworthy"
"Jon Lloyd Duerdoth" <jld@welshdragoncomputing.ca> wrote in message
news:C47F5E4A-F723-4980-9F67-F3DD749549E5@news.elevatesoft.com...
> Having just received e-mails about purchasing Delphi 2007
> I would like someone to comment about why Delphi 2006
> cannot develop for Windows Vista... is there
> something specific about Windows Vista that requires
> something special about a Delphi developed program?

Jon,

(not a direct answer to your question)

I have saved this link for my own studies:
http://www.installationexcellence.com/articles/VistaWithDelphi/Index.html

Personally I am not in a hurry at all to install Vista and I won't be adding
any new features to my software that are Vista-only at any time in the near
future.

-Johnnie

Thu, Feb 22 2007 7:30 PMPermanent Link

"Adam H."
Jon,

I have vista installed on one of my laptops, and have successfully installed
Delphi 7, DBISam, ReportBuilder, JediVCL and about 50 other 3rd party
components (and that's not much of an exageration, I really need to cut back
Smiley, and compiled and run successfully a couple of my larger applications.

There was a bit of tweaking to get Delphi7 working. (Not too hard, but
Vista's stupid security issues needed to be got around. Taking 'ownership'
of the entire HDD and subfolders helped Wink

So, I can't commend on D2006, but would say if Delphi 7 can run without
problems, then I wouldn't have thought D2006 should have had too many
issues.

However - I'm not planning on merging to Vista for production until I'm
forced kicking and screaming. Have you checked out that OS? It's anightmare.

Although I must admit - I did have to laugh at:

"You are not allowed to perform this operation. Would you like to be able to
perform this operation? <Yes> <No"

Click Yes:

"You can now perform this operation, click OK to continue".

I just can't remember what it was for.

Cheers

Adam.

Fri, Feb 23 2007 4:46 AMPermanent Link

The link shows some of the issues that need to be fixed, and I hope are
already fixed in Delphi 2007. Particularly the mini-preview mode. But I
think the main benefits are the "glass" support and the TaskDialog (which
I hope is emulated in older OS's). I've switched one of my apps to using
the TaskDialog from TMS, and it really does make a much better interface.
UI Research has shown that the more text you provide to explain something,
the less people read of it. Thus splitting the MessageBox into two
portions - a big question and a detailed explanation - makes the
experience better. The big question allows a quick read and response, but
for those who need it you have more detail about what the question means.

Of course you don't need to go to Vista to give your users these benefits.

/Matthew Jones/
Fri, Feb 23 2007 7:29 AMPermanent Link

Tim Young [Elevate Software]

Elevate Software, Inc.

Avatar

Email timyoung@elevatesoft.com

Adam,

<< Although I must admit - I did have to laugh at:

"You are not allowed to perform this operation. Would you like to be able
to perform this operation? <Yes> <No"

Click Yes:

"You can now perform this operation, click OK to continue".

I just can't remember what it was for. >>

I've checked out Vista here a bit, and the first time I ran into the dialog
prompt about modifying a file, or something similar, I thought "well, that's
pretty nice that they let the user know that something is being modified on
their system".   Of course, after the 200th time of seeing that damn
message, I wanted to just kick someone in the groin. Smiley

I'm sure there's a way to turn that stuff off, but geez, what genius came up
with a feature that 99.9% of computer users will immediately want to turn
off ?

--
Tim Young
Elevate Software
www.elevatesoft.com

Fri, Feb 23 2007 10:47 AMPermanent Link

> I'm sure there's a way to turn that stuff off, but geez, what genius
> came up with a feature that 99.9% of computer users will immediately
> want to turn off ?

I suspect though, that most users actually won't have so many warnings.
They'll get given a PC, install a few apps, and from then on will write to
My Documents etc. I got harangued about this elsewhere, but I think that
app developers have been told long ago not to write to Program Files etc
and if you follow the "rules" then it won't happen often. The people who
will face it a lot are those who are doing more technical things like
running servers which store data in the app directory (or sub-directory).

/Matthew Jones/
Fri, Feb 23 2007 12:27 PMPermanent Link

Roy Lambert

NLH Associates

Team Elevate Team Elevate

Matthew


Yeah so all users/programmers have to store their data into a M$ specified folder. This is standards for the sake of being bloody minded and totally unhelpful.

Anyone ever tried to locate their M$ apps files (eg like OE or Outlook) so you can back them up. Its a bloody nightmare. Of course it does you no good because its frequently impossible to restore them and use them again. My favourite (and one of the reasons I wrote my own) is OE. You can backup and restore emails, but not news. So you have to re-download everything. It was great in the days of dial up Smiley

Roy Lambert
Fri, Feb 23 2007 12:41 PMPermanent Link

> This is standards for the sake of being bloody minded and totally
> unhelpful.

But that's the problem - it isn't for that reason. The reason is that
there's tons of nasty trojans and worms that take over computers without
people knowing. So your mum visits a web page, and something pops up and
she clicks OK. Oops, did that let in an ActiveX that downloads a key-
logger and spam sender? The computer is now owned. This is the reality of
today. Now, imagine if when that happened, and it tried to write to the
places it needs to, the big scary "get your attention" UAC dialog pops up.
Okay, so some people are still going to say OK, but with a little training
people will start to say no, and they will be protected from the trojans.

It's a pain in the neck having to use locks on our doors, but it stops
some basic problems. UAC is designed to do the same for average users.
It's a little more work for a programmer, but with that little extra work
it is all just fine. If you want to put your files in C:\MyData, then you
can go ahead and do it. Just make sure the permissions are set properly at
install time. But if you put it in the recommended place, then it would be
compatible with roaming profiles and the like which gives corporate users
a benefit.

I'm not pro-Vista - I've only done basic testing here - but these benefits
are available on XP too if you don't make everyone Administrators.

I think the situation is really that if you are writing apps for the mass
market, then you need to be doing things "right". If you are writing apps
for specific clients and have control over the machines, then you can do
what you want, though doing it "right" may actually make things easier.
And "right" may not be "really right", but it's the "Microsoft right" that
we have to live with.

Have fun,

/Matthew Jones/
Fri, Feb 23 2007 1:53 PMPermanent Link

Roy Lambert

NLH Associates

Team Elevate Team Elevate

Matthew


Ooo - you've pressed my big red button so here goes

Adding in extra popups is as great a step forward as the new ribbon menu for Word! All that does is allow M$ to stuff in more features that no-one uses and say how much better they've made it.

>> This is standards for the sake of being bloody minded and totally
>> unhelpful.
>
>But that's the problem - it isn't for that reason. The reason is that
>there's tons of nasty trojans and worms that take over computers without
>people knowing. So your mum visits a web page, and something pops up and
>she clicks OK. Oops, did that let in an ActiveX that downloads a key-
>logger and spam sender? The computer is now owned. This is the reality of
>today. Now, imagine if when that happened, and it tried to write to the
>places it needs to, the big scary "get your attention" UAC dialog pops up.
>Okay, so some people are still going to say OK, but with a little training
>people will start to say no, and they will be protected from the trojans.

Have you seen the research about how people react to popups - they just click OK, don't read it, just click OK. If there's a checkbox saying "click here if you don't want to be asked again" it gets ignored.

"with a little training" - how much training is needed. People have been told and trained not to open suspicious attachments - they still do! People have been told that if they haven't entered the lottery they can't have won. The spammers collected (according to a news feed today) c£321m last year.

>
>It's a pain in the neck having to use locks on our doors,

There are conventions as to how high to place the locks for good reasons - most peoples height. M$ would probably require it fitting on the top of the frame so you needed steps and had to twist round to get the key in the lock, and by the way it would be a feature rich keyhole requiring you to .... (make you own junk up here)

>but it stops
>some basic problems.

Yes but only an idiot designs a door without a centre panel so someone can just step through.

>UAC is designed to do the same for average users.

I very much doubt it.

>I think the situation is really that if you are writing apps for the mass
>market, then you need to be doing things "right". If you are writing apps
>for specific clients and have control over the machines, then you can do
>what you want, though doing it "right" may actually make things easier.
>And "right" may not be "really right", but it's the "Microsoft right" that
>we have to live with.

I would restate your proposition - if you're writing apps for the mass market write them as M$ wants cos you don't have much choice - and they're making sure you get less all the time.

Soon ALL apps will have to go to RIchmond to be certified before being allowed on one of their PCs.


One of the scariest things I ever heard was Bill Gates saying words to the effect "soon all software will be written this way". Unfortunately its coming true.

TTFN

Roy Lambert
Fri, Feb 23 2007 8:33 PMPermanent Link

"David Farrell-Garcia"
Jon Lloyd Duerdoth wrote:

> Having just received e-mails about purchasing Delphi 2007
> I would like someone to comment about why Delphi 2006
> cannot develop for Windows Vista... is there
> something specific about Windows Vista that requires
> something special about a Delphi developed program?
>
> Jon

Nope.  I have been doing it with Delphi 7, complete with all the bells
and whistles (new dialogs, task bar preview,etc)

--
David Farrell-Garcia
Whidbey Island Software, LLC
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