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Thu, Mar 21 2019 11:23 AMPermanent Link

Tim Young [Elevate Software]

Elevate Software, Inc.

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Email timyoung@elevatesoft.com


<< Such an undeveloped editor can be tolerated in a project beginning or in free software, but not in a commercial product that exists on the market for many years. As a programmer, I spend many hours a day working in an editor. IMO, this is the first thing that needs to be polished to shine. If the developer does not understand this, then he does not value the time of his clients, and they will vote with their feet at the first opportunity. But for now there is just nowhere to go. Acorn were good till bread was found... >>

It's easy to say what someone should do when *you* don't have to actually do it.  You have no idea what type of constraints I'm working under.  Most people in the same position as myself would have simply shuttered the business and moved on (probably, years ago).

I'm trying very hard to move the company, and our products, in a good direction while still providing a good level of support to existing customers with complex needs.  I'm *one* person.

Tim Young
Elevate Software
www.elevatesoft.com
Thu, Mar 21 2019 11:29 AMPermanent Link

Tim Young [Elevate Software]

Elevate Software, Inc.

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Email timyoung@elevatesoft.com

Steve,

<< Why doesn't Tim use the available components that make great modern editors, such as SynEdit or Scintilla, that allow them to be used in commercial products if he doesn't have the time or desire to create something of his own? What is this, disrespect for users or a heavy form of NIH syndrome? >>

Because there are issues with integration into the IDE/compiler with any 3rd party product, and it all goes back to the time it takes to do the work.

Also, that fact that I'm here doing this still after 20 years pretty much says that I have a lot of respect and appreciation for our users/customers.  What about you - why can't you seem to afford the same to me and my company ?

Tim Young
Elevate Software
www.elevatesoft.com
Thu, Mar 21 2019 9:10 PMPermanent Link

Steve Gill

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<<<<
Steve,

<< Why doesn't Tim use the available components that make great modern editors, such as SynEdit or Scintilla, that allow them to be used in commercial products if he doesn't have the time or desire to create something of his own? What is this, disrespect for users or a heavy form of NIH syndrome? >>

Because there are issues with integration into the IDE/compiler with any 3rd party product, and it all goes back to the time it takes to do the work.

Also, that fact that I'm here doing this still after 20 years pretty much says that I have a lot of respect and appreciation for our users/customers.  What about you - why can't you seem to afford the same to me and my company ? >>>>

Ummm, Tim.  That wasn't me that said that.  Frown

= Steve
Thu, Mar 21 2019 9:32 PMPermanent Link

Steve Gill

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Hi Ooptimum

<< I'm sure that if there was a competing product for the same money, but with a more advanced language or a more convenient editor, you would all go there, despite your assurances of respect and flattering.>>  

Actually NO, I wouldn't.  That may be the way you think and feel, but I don't.  So don't try and speak for me.  Money isn't the only consideration.  It's also about the relationship and trust.


<< Why write all this over and over again? You already thank him for his work with your money. >>

Why not?  It's nice to feel appreciated.  I have many customers thank me for my products even though they paid for it, and I really appreciate their thanks.  As a thank you, I've had some amazing offers from customers (unfortunately they're all overseas).  

= Steve
Fri, Mar 22 2019 12:30 AMPermanent Link

Bill

Every day, our customers ask more and more. All of us, maybe, have same pressure.
I know that EWB is a great product and with it we do our business and every day work.
I prefer doing better than go to market soon.
With EWB I'm doing better things quickly. It could be better and on it, I hope, Tim's working.
I remember every day that without Tim, maybe, I'll do an half of my internet software and with an half of general quality.

Thank you Tim.

Save your soul, save our souls.
Fri, Mar 22 2019 12:40 PMPermanent Link

ooptimum

<< You have no idea what type of constraints I'm working under. >>

You too have no idea what type of constraints I'm working under. And so what?

<< Because there are issues with integration into the IDE/compiler with any 3rd party product, and it all goes back to the time it takes to do the work. >>

A lot of people have been asking you for years to improve the editor. I am curious did anybody ask you to implement server-side scripting? Its development also takes time, doesn't it? Server-side scripting is maybe also important, but not as important as a good programmers editor.

<< Also, that fact that I'm here doing this still after 20 years pretty much says that I have a lot of respect and appreciation for our users/customers. >>

I'm not sure how it's related. I thought you were just making money doing what you like to do. But if you claim to respect your users, why don't you do what users have been asking you to do for years? Just don't think it's important? Don't tell about constraints, please. They don't constraint you at all in implementing something else, a new compiler, for instance.

<< What about you - why can't you seem to afford the same to me and my company ? >>

First, I don't feel obliged, and users agreement doesn't oblige me either. I don't have any emotional ties with you personally, nor with your company. Second, if I criticize something you do it's doesn't imply some disrespect to you or your company. Why do you always take it like that? Do users only have the right to praise and express their admiration? I like a lot about EWB and that's why I'm still here, but there are also things I don't like at all. And I suppose I have the right to express my own opinion on that.
Fri, Mar 22 2019 1:02 PMPermanent Link

Tim Young [Elevate Software]

Elevate Software, Inc.

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Email timyoung@elevatesoft.com


<< You too have no idea what type of constraints I'm working under. And so what? >>

I'm not going on to *your* company's web site and complaining about how you prioritize your development time.  That's *what*.

<< A lot of people have been asking you for years to improve the editor. I am curious did anybody ask you to implement server-side scripting? Its development also takes time, doesn't it? Server-side scripting is maybe also important, but not as important as a good programmers editor. >>

I see, so you are privy to every conversation I've had with every EWB customer ?

<< I'm not sure how it's related. I thought you were just making money doing what you like to do. But if you claim to respect your users, why don't you do what users have been asking you to do for years? Just don't think it's important? Don't tell about constraints, please. They don't constraint you at all in implementing something else, a new compiler, for instance. >>

So, you think that I should defer to customers for all new feature decisions instead of actually running my own company ?  Newsflash: sometimes there are things that need to get done that customers (and this includes you) aren't aware of, and sometimes they are big items that take a lot of time.  This isn't an open source project, and the only vote you get is with your feet.  If you're unhappy with the software, then use something else.  It's really that simple.

<< First, I don't feel obliged, and users agreement doesn't oblige me either. I don't have any emotional ties with you personally, nor with your company. >>

No, but I certainly don't have to tolerate the repeated lecturing from you.  So, to be as clear as possible: these are not *your* support forums, and you are being put on notice to keep any posts/discussions on the topic of *support questions*.  What you're doing is simply creating noise.

<< Second, if I criticize something you do it's doesn't imply some disrespect to you or your company. Why do you always take it like that? >>

It's not what you say, it's how you say it.  You're extremely disrespectful in how you phrase your comments, and you're attempting to bully me into doing what you want by coming here and posting ridiculous comments questioning whether I have NIH syndrome, etc.

Tim Young
Elevate Software
www.elevatesoft.com
Fri, Mar 22 2019 1:03 PMPermanent Link

Tim Young [Elevate Software]

Elevate Software, Inc.

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Email timyoung@elevatesoft.com

Steve,

<< Ummm, Tim.  That wasn't me that said that.  Frown>>

Sorry, replied to the wrong comment.  My apologies.

Tim Young
Elevate Software
www.elevatesoft.com
Fri, Mar 22 2019 1:52 PMPermanent Link

ooptimum

I told you already, English is not my native language, so I am trying to be understandable first. And I am not respectful, nor disrespectful, I am neutral. And you certainly disrespectful to me and my opinion now.

Just to be on topic of this thread, do you consider improving the editor in foresible future or not?
Fri, Mar 22 2019 6:34 PMPermanent Link

Steve Gill

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Hi Ooptimum,

<< ooptimum wrote:

Just to be on topic of this thread, do you consider improving the editor in foresible future or not? >>

I hope Tim doesn't mind me answering this for him but if you check the road map you will see it's definitely on there:  https://www.elevatesoft.com/roadmap?category=ewb

= Steve
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